Is this true that Jesus drank alcoholic wine as the lyrics, “Cause I heard Jesus, He drank wine”? Some question this. What kind of wine did Jesus drink? Did Jesus drink intoxicating amounts of wine?
The Definition of Biblical Wine
The word “wine” in the Bible is not always alcoholic or equivalent to modern wine. The Bible uses one Greek word for “wine” and “grape juice” which could mean alcoholic wine of varying amounts or non-alcoholic grape juice (1 Tim 3:8; Titus 2:3). The Hebrew word for “wine” is yayin and the Greek is oinos (MT; LXX). Biblical “wine” is grape juice that may or may not have fermented. However, the wine of today has considerably more alcohol than wine in the first century because of modified yeast. The Bible includes a number of examples of unfermented “wine”:
- “Wine” is the blood of the grape (Gen 49:11–12, Heb. yayin, Gr. oinos LXX; Deut 32:14, Heb. chemer; Gr. oinos LXX).
- The vineyard is the place of “red wine” (Isa 27:2, Heb. chemer).
- “Wine” refers to the grape juice from the grapes of the field (Deut 11:14; 2 Chr 31:5, Heb. tirosh; Gr. oinos LXX; Jer 40:10, 12, Heb. yayin; Gr. oinos LXX).
- Scripture describes “wine” that is in the grape (Isa 65:8, Heb. tirosh).
- The grape juice of the wine-press is “wine” (Prov 3:10, Heb. tirosh; Gr. oinos LXX; Isa 16:10; Jer 48:33, Heb. yayin; Gr. oinos LXX).
These references reveal that the word “wine” in Hebrew and Greek often refers to non-alcoholic grape juice in the Bible. Linguistics requires that one begin with the generic meaning and then determine other specific meanings of a word by its context and, or use.
In reading the Old Testament, Bible translations represent six different Hebrew words “wine” for which one word excludes alcohol. This word is asis meaning “sweet grape juice” or “new grape juice.” The word has no reference to alcohol, yet translators have interpreted it as “wine” to avoid interpreting the contexts with nuances and ambiguity. Therefore, the word “wine” does not necessarily mean alcoholic wine in the Bible.
The Bible does not appear to contain one positive statement about intoxicating wine or any such drink. The Bible does include positive words about generic “wine” that is grape juice (Gen 14:18; Num 15:5–10; Deut 14:26; Ps 104:15; Isa 55:1; Amos 9:14; John 2:1–11; 1 Tim 5:23). References to “strong drink” or “liquor” in the Bible refer to cider in biblical translations of sikera, σικερα, according to Danker and Gingrich’s Greek lexicon (cf. Deut 14:26; Luke 1:15; Wycliffe’s Bible).
Ancient Wine and Today’s Wine
In the Bible, alcoholic wine is not like wine today. The sugar of grape juice can only ferment to 3 or 4% alcohol with wild yeast — airborne yeast. For grape juice to exceed 4% alcohol, then the winemaker must add yeast. The yeast added to ancient wines produced between 4–11% alcohol. Alcohol kills these yeast cells and prevents levels of alcohol from exceeding ~10%. Today, wines average 12–20% alcohol due to modern fermentation by adding sulfur dioxide and Saccharomyces (a cultured GMO yeast) to a late harvest of ripened grapes with higher fructose (Winemaker Magazine, Wines & Vines, UC Davis, International Biblical Encyclopedia, “Alcohol in the Church,” Bible Wine). Today’s wine is not like biblical wine in regards to alcoholic content. Due to the later invention of distilling, strong drinks like liquor exceed 20% alcohol for which today’s wine is coming close to matching.
When reading the word “wine” in the Bible, the word may simply refer to grape juice or intoxicating wine not exceeding ~10% alcohol. The reader must interpret the word “wine” within its context to determine if it is alcoholic. However, biblical wine is certainly not like wine today.
Because of the use of the word “wine” in English Bibles, many presume that Jesus drank alcoholic wine. Jesus did not drink modern wine. The methods for fermenting highly-alcoholic wine had not yet been invented. Jesus’s opponents did accuse Him of being a “wine-drinker” from the Greek oinopoteis, because He came freely eating and also drinking grape juice unlike John the Baptist who restricted his eating and drinking (Matt 11:18–19; Luke 7:33–34). These antagonists appear to accuse Jesus of drinking alcoholic wine. However, when the reader considers the wedding that Jesus attended in Cana and Jesus’s institution of the Lord’s Supper, then His drinking of wine is not what many have presumed.
Water to Wine
What about Jesus turning water into wine? Upon reading John 2:1–11 in most English translations, many took the text as stating that Jesus turned water into intoxicating wine at the wedding in Cana, a small town in Galilee (John 2). These scriptures infer that the wedding guests “have well drunk” a large amount of oinos wine. The Greek word translated as “well drunk” is methuo meaning literally to fill or make full, and many times the word means “drunk” depending on the context. Translators correctly render methuo as “drunk” in contexts referring to drunkenness by drinking intoxicating wine or filling oneself with wine (Gingrich and Danker’s lexicon). John’s reference to the guests having “drunk well” and becoming full also implies that the wedding feast was relatively short especially if one takes this word in John 2:10 to mean that the guests were “drunk.”
In this case, Jesus either made more alcoholic wine for those who were drunk or He made more grape juice for those who would have their fill. Which is plausible: that Jesus created intoxicating wine for those who were drunk or that He made fresh “new wine,” grape juice, for those who had drunk well of the previous supply? If one interprets this passage as Jesus making alcoholic wine, then Jesus created more intoxicating wine for those who were already drunk or filled. If one perceives that the wedding guests were simply full of non-alcoholic wine, then Jesus made “new wine” with minimal to no alcohol.
Furthermore, “good wine” was limited late in winter and just before Passover when the wine had aged throughout the year (John 2:13). Jesus providing more aged and intoxicating wine would not have been an apparent miraculous sign. Jesus provided them with “good wine.” Was it “good wine” as though received from the grape press? The making of new wine would magnify Jesus’s sign because this was just before the Passover and before the first harvest of grapes. Therefore, Jesus’s production of fresh grape juice would have been an evident miraculous wonder of God.
The master of the feast depicted the situation that which the guests had filled themselves with wine from the meaning of “filled” of the Greek word methuo in John 2:9–10. A wedding feast may last a day and sometimes more (Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah). John depicted that many would have drunk well of the wine so the guests were full as implied by the Greek word methuo. Being filled with wine tells that this drinking of the wedding feast occurred in a short amount of time within a few hours. The guests would immediately drink the wine that Jesus made. If Jesus made alcoholic wine, Jesus would have made more intoxicating wine amounting to between 120 to 180 gallons of additional alcoholic wine. What would happen if three hundred guests “have well drunk” and then drank an additional 150 gallons of alcoholic wine? Jesus would have given each guest an additional 64 ounces of alcoholic wine. The average person would have drunk another 6–12 drinks of alcoholic wine if there were 300 guests. However, the abundance was part of the miracle like the 12 baskets of bread left over from feeding the 5,000. Maybe the wine was not meant to be consumed immediately.
Even considering a wedding party of a thousand guests who have well drunk, each person would have consumed about 19 ounces of wine. Presuming that this wine contained 10% alcohol because the scenario includes fermented wine and the guests drank it all in one day, Jesus would have aided a thousand people in binge drinking having intoxicated the guests with three additional drinks who were already intoxicated as indicated by the Greek methuo for having “well drunk.” For each guest to have had simply two more drinks, then the wedding would have had at least 1,600 attendees. Despite the number in attendance, Jesus would have presumably contributed a considerable amount of alcohol to those who were already filled with wine. For those proposing that Jesus made highly intoxicating wine like today’s wine, 16–24 ounces would intoxicate anyone at an alcoholic level of 12–15% according to the CDC. Either today’s intoxicating wine or first-century fermented wine appears to be an absurdity at this wedding.
To assume that Jesus made alcoholic wine is to assume that after everyone had drunk all the other wine, then Jesus made more intoxicating wine for all of those who had their fill. The scenario of Jesus producing alcoholic wine appears implausible and uncharacteristic of biblical commands to refrain from drunkenness. If Jesus did make a great amount of fermented wine, He would have aided the sin of drunkenness and excessive drinking and would have participated in a drinking party, which are all condemned by His disciple and apostle Peter in the Scriptures (1 Pet 4:3).
Wine and the Lord’s Supper
Did Jesus use alcoholic wine in the Lord’s Supper? What kind of wine would someone drink at a feast where yeast was thrown out? Many have assumed that Jesus drank wine because many churches have made alcoholic wine a part of the “Eucharist,” the Lord’s Supper. Did Jesus use highly alcoholic wine when He instituted the Lord’s Supper? First, the Scriptures never use the word “wine” in any of the four accounts of Jesus instituting the Lord’s Supper. Jesus mentioned the specific content of the cup containing “the fruit of the grapevine.” The passages about the Lord’s Supper make no reference to alcoholic wine. The Greek word for “wine” is never used in Scripture to describe any part of the Lord’s Supper.
Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper during the Passover Feast. What kind of wine did the Jews use during Passover? Jesus used unleavened bread in the Passover because this is also the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Israel threw out all leaven by God’s command including the leavened bread (Exod 13:6–7). The throwing out of the yeast implies that Israel removed the grape juice fermented by the leavening of yeast. Fermented wine was not likely a part of the Passover taught by Moses. Furthermore, Jesus referred to the contents of the cup as “fruit of the grapevine” in the Lord’s Supper indicating minimal to no fermentation even from wild yeast. The intent of the cup of the Lord was not to intoxicate.
What about those who got drunk by drinking the Lord’s Supper? Getting drunk by bringing intoxicating wine to the Lord’s Supper does not mean that Jesus gave the disciples alcoholic wine in the Lord’s Supper. First Corinthians 11:21–22 depicts, “Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk [methuo]” (ESV). This passage also uses the Greek word methuo, which can mean drunk or filled (cf. John 2:10). Some ate the Lord’s Supper as a meal so that they were filled and those who drank were also filled not necessarily drunk. However, Paul could have been correcting such intoxication as well. If one assumes that these Christians became drunk in the assembly using the grape juice for the Lord’s Supper, then they must also presume that those drinking brought enough intoxicating wine to get drunk and intended to use such for the Lord’s Supper. The use of alcoholic wine implies that some of these Christians brought intoxicating wine for the church to drink together for the Lord’s Supper. They would also have decided to drink and get drunk from that wine in assembly rather than wait for others. Whether the wine was alcoholic or not, 1 Corinthians 11 neither condones alcoholic wine for the Lord’s Supper nor suggests that Jesus used alcoholic wine for His disciples to commune with Christ in remembrance of His sacrificial blood.
Warnings about Wine
Jesus warned against drunkenness and filling oneself with intoxicating drinks that trap people in this life (Luke 21:34). The Bible warns those who do drink, linger, and look at the cup (Prov 23:29–35; Rom 14:17–22). Christians can and should warn others about alcohol.
The apostle Paul revealed that those who continue in drunkenness will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9–11; Gal 5:19–21). The Greek word translated “drunkenness” literally means “filling oneself” in Scripture (Eph 5:18–19; cf. Rom 13:13). Christ’s Spirit in Galatians 5:19–21 teaches that such “drunkenness” is a “work of the flesh” and “those who are doing such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5 also condemned “wild parties” or “revelries” where any of the lists of sins like drunkenness would constitute a party as sinful and carnal. Paul also revealed in 1 Corinthians 6:10 that drunkards “will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Drunkenness and filling one’s body with intoxicants is a sin.
Filling oneself with alcohol is evil and compromises the sobriety of the Christian conscience and one’s heart (cf. Rom 2:14–15; 1 John 3:19–21). Christ’s words and those of His apostles and prophets urge all to avoid drunkenness, and so Christians should do likewise and warn others of drunkenness. Peter warned, “For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Nations want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness [lit. excessive drinking], orgies, drinking parties [lit. drinkings], and lawless idolatry” (1 Pet 4:3). The word for “drunkenness” in 1 Peter 4:3 is not the usual word for drunkenness, but the Greek word is oinophlugia made of two words oinos meaning “wine” and phlugia is “to do something in excess.” Excessive drinking is a sin. Furthermore, “drinking parties” is translated from the Greek word potos, which literally denotes occasions that people gather for the purpose of drinking.
The apostle Paul commanded Christians to remain sober and make no provision to become drunk on any level (1 Thess 5:8). Christ had no part with drunkenness and drinking parties, so His followers must not. According to Romans 14, Christians should not condemn their brother over a drink; although, every Christian has the scriptural example and the foresight to warn against its use and against looking at the cup (Prov 23:29–35; Rom 14:17–22). Solomon warned by the wisdom of God.
Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it swirls around smoothly; At the last it bites like a serpent, And stings like a viper. Your eyes will see strange things, And your heart will utter perverse things. (Prov 23:31–33)
Therefore, “Wine is a mocker, Strong drink is a brawler, And whoever is led astray by it is not wise” (Prov 20:1). The assertions of positive statements about drinking alcohol in the Bible are private interpretations.
Conclusion
The wine that Jesus drank was not intoxicating. Alcoholic wine is not characteristic of Jesus or any godly behavior in the Bible. Jesus neither encouraged drunkenness nor drank intoxicating wine. No one can rightly reference Jesus to justify excessive drinking, drunkenness, and drinking events. The Bible neither promotes nor supports the drinking of intoxicants. God’s grace compels Christians no longer to continue in any excessive drinking of alcohol because they have been forgiven.
Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. (Rom 13:13–14)
Bibliography
- Jeff Chorniak. “Wild Yeast: The Pros and Cons of Spontaneous Fermentation.” Winemakers Magazine. 2005. <http://winemakermag.com/758-wild-yeast-the-pros-and-cons-of-spontaneous-fermentation>.
- Jean L. Jacobson. “Upsides of Wild Fermentation.” Wine & Vines, 2012. <http://www.winesandvines.com/template.cfm?section=features&content=98687>.
- “Marking Red Table Wine.” University of California Davis, 2016. <http://wineserver.ucdavis.edu/pdf/HWM3.pdf>.
- James Orr, M.A., D.D. “Wine; Wine Press.” International Bible Encyclopedia, 1915. <http://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/isb/view.cgi?n=9116>.
- “Alcohol in the Church.” 2016. <http://www.abidingplace.org/features/alcohol-in-the-church.html>.
- Kyle Pope. “Bible Wine.” Olsen Park church of Christ, 2013. <http://www.olsenpark.com/Sermons13/BibleWine.html>.
- Alfred Edersheim. The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah. Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1883. <https://www.ccel.org/ccel/edersheim/lifetimes>.
Related posts:
“Reconsider the Biblical Concept of Drunkenness“
The Breath of God 
What kind of wine did Jesus drink? The answer to this is relatively simple: when He drank wine for social purposes, He drank wine of an unintoxicating nature (Isa. 65:8 — note here that this wine is found in the cluster. There is no intoxicating wine found in freshly squeezed grape juice). If He drank intoxicating wine, then He would have taken some for a legitimate medicinal purpose (1 Tim. 5:23). If He did drink intoxicating wine for some other (illegal) purpose, He would have sinned; which of course we know this He did not do (2 Cor. 5:21).
A few on this thread (Gary Meier, et al.) have attempted to say God approves of intoxicating wine as long as one is not getting drunk. What they are really teaching is God has no problem with the social or casual use of a mind altering drug. The Bible commands the Christian to be sober (1 Pet. 1:13; 1 Thess. 5:6-8). Even the world recognizes two drinks renders most all people unfit to safely drive a vehicle — because he is not completely sober. Knowingly imbibing an intoxicating beverage, not for a legitimate medical use is therefore sinful. The truth is, drunkenness, revellings (defined as half-drunken by Thayer’s), and banquetings (social drinking) are all in the category of the “same excess of riot” (1 Pet. 4:3-4) and condemned. Any other teaching is utterly contrary to sound doctrine.
I wonder if Gary & company will also defend the casual use of marijuana. Or other hard drugs such as cocaine, LSD, methamphetamine, “magic mushrooms”, etc. And before anyone throws out the old “those things are illegal” argument, I would remind you that adultery (in most cases), homosexual conduct, divorce and remarriage for any cause, premarital sex, abortion, atheism, witchcraft, telling a little white lie, etc. are also not considered crimes in the United States.
In closing, I have some questions for those that would continue to defend the [scripturally] illegal use of a drug that will cause one to lose their inheritance (Gal. 5:21). I believe these originated with Ernest A. Finley:
Can you say, “I drink alcoholic liquor because it makes me a stronger Christian.”? “A better husband.”? “A better wife.”? “A better mother or father”?
Can you say, “I drink because it helps me in deciding what’s right and wrong”?
Can you say, “I drink because it makes me a more effective teacher of God’s Word and helps me to exert a strong influence for truth and right”?
Can you say, “I drink because it helps me to have more interest in spiritual things, like the study of God’s Word or His worship”?
Can you say, “I drink because it makes my life richer, fuller and better in every way”?
Can you say, “I drink because I know that no harm can possibly come from it”?
Can you say, “I drink because I know that drinking is far better than total abstinence”?
Can you say, “I drink because I know the Lord wants me to”?
If the alleged Christian cannot truthfully answer these questions in the affirmative, I submit he has no business teaching others they can drink (use drugs) “in moderation”.
Submitted for everyone’s consideration.
Strong points. Thank you.
strong but fallacious
Mr. Meier — a simple assertion of an alleged fallacy will not do. By what reason are these points fallacious?
I posted a rlonger esponse this morning. Not sure where it went…
I’m leaving in a few minutes for Ecuador to assist with relief efforts there. I’ll try to address your question upon returning to the good ole USA. It’s entirely possible someone else will respond to your note before I return.
Ozanark said: Mr. Meier — a simple assertion of an alleged fallacy will not do. By what reason are these points fallacious?
Ozanark. As I previously wrote, I was heading to Ecuador to assist with earthquake relief. I said I would respond to your question when I returned. I’m back after a most eventful and blessing filled experience. The devastation on the coast of Ecuador is not describable. You have to see it to believe it. In a nutshell, 659 people have died, 40 are missing, 113 rescued alive, 17,738 injured, 29,067 displaced (lost their homes), 7000 destroyed buildings and 281 schools destroyed and closed. Water is the most crucial need in their lives at this time. You should see the crap some of them are drinking. Water is being delivered to dozens of cities but after a day, each family’s supply is exhausted. Thus, our focus was delivering, mainly to Christians, water filters that supply water to a family for a year. They are amazing creations, rendering the water 99.9% pure no matter what they pour in…dirty pond water, river water, rain water and even foul stuff running in ditches. In four of the cities which we visited, almost 80% of the entire city was destroyed…houses, businesses, churches, schools, etc. The water filters cost $33.33 each and since returning I am about the business of raising money so many more people will have life-giving and life-saving pure water to drink. It will be months before water will be available for anyone to take a bath.
Now to your question. To begin, the word “fallacious” is a very strong word. It means so much more than just being “wrong”. Some of the meanings I am referring to are:
containing a mistake from too little information… not true or accurate…tending to deceive or mislead…logically unsound…delusive…a false conclusion coming from incomplete understanding…distorting the truth.
You begin your whole thesis by stating that Jesus drank wine of an “unintoxicating nature” and then quote Isaiah 65.8. Each of the definitions of fallacious above applies to your first paragraph. A single doctrine cannot be developed from one or two passages of Holy Scripture. That is called “pick and choose Christianity”. It is not good Biblical scholarship, and in fact, it is deceptive and distorts the truth.
If you want to discuss what the Bible teaches about consuming alcoholic beverages then you need to understand how the subject is addressed from Genesis to Revelation. Quoting this passage from Isaiah tells me you are grasping at straws to “prove” something that isn’t there. You aren’t alone. Many people twist the Bible to make it say what they think it should say, not what it actually teaches.
Specifically, as I have very carefully documented in this thread, there is no such thing as non-alcoholic wine. The very definition of wine implies that it is always alcoholic. Speaking of the cluster, have you ever worked a vineyard? When you do you will see the bees acting strangely because they are consuming fermented grape juice directly from the grapes and are actually drunk. Grapes begin to ferment while on the vine. Isaiah 65:8 states “As the new wine is found in the cluster”. That also shows this verse is speaking of wine and not grape juice. New wine in the Bible always refers to fermented grape juice. New wine remains new wine until the following year’s harvest. It is not grape juice.
The rapid change of grape juice to wine is the reason the Bible refers to wine presses rather than grape juice presses. Even on the vine, the juice within the grapes is becoming wine. The people in the Bible synonymously referred to grape juice as wine…it is one and the same. The reason is, unfermented grape juice was very difficult to keep in the warm and dusty conditions of the Palestinian world. Preserving grape juice in its original form was next to impossible.
You are being so disingenuous when you say “He drank wine of an unintoxicating nature”. There is not one verse in the entire Bible that supports this kind of foolishness. Jesus quite specifically states that he drank alcoholic beverages (Matt. 11: 18,19 – Luke 7: 34,35), his first miracle was turning water into wine during a special wedding ceremony at Cana in which his family was involved (John 2: 1-11) and he served wine to his disciples during the first Holy Communion ceremony. Read Matt. 11 carefully. He was accused of being a drunkard by others who observed him drinking. And Jesus agreed with them that, indeed, he did come drinking. The Luke passage, along with Matthew, also compares Jesus with John the Baptist. John the Baptist did not drink wine, Jesus did. Although the wedding and communion stories did not report that Jesus drank the wine he made and served, it can be assumed he participated in both functions. The Greek word used for the wine Jesus produced from water, “oinos”, which means the fermented grape, is the same one as used for the wine on which Noah became so stinking drunk (Gen. 9:21). The word for unfermented grape juice is “trux” and is used sparingly in the Bible, never in the NT.
Next you say: If He drank intoxicating wine, then He would have taken some for a legitimate medicinal purpose (1 Tim. 5:23). If He did drink intoxicating wine for some other (illegal) purpose, He would have sinned; which of course we know this He did not do (2 Cor. 5:21).
Where in the Bible are you finding such things? Where is the definition of legitimate and illegal purposes of drinking wine. Associating Jesus’ drinking with “legitimate medical purposes” is fallacious…a false conclusion coming from incomplete understanding. There is no such thing as “legitimate medical purposes” in the Bible.
This is another example of being fallacious…not true or accurate. You don’t even understand the 1 Tim. verse. Timothy was told to “no longer drink only water”. That means from then on he was to include wine in his daily diet. He was to drink wine not only to heal his stomach and other ailments, but also to keep on drinking wine to keep his body healed. This shows that drinking wine is legitimate at any time by any person. There is no such thing as an “illegal” purpose for drinking, it just isn’t in the Bible. Such a premise is fallacious because it tends to deceive or mislead. I’ve also fully documented in this thread more than sixty scientific studies that prove without a doubt that those who drink on a consistent basis enjoy a far more healthy life than those who do not drink. Again proving that the Bible is never wrong.
Your next paragraph is mind-boggling. You begin by saying: A few on this thread (Gary Meier, et al.) have attempted to say God approves of intoxicating wine as long as one is not getting drunk. What they are really teaching is God has no problem with the social or casual use of a mind altering drug.
Gary Meier, et al. have not attempted to say or teach anything. They are simply stating what the Bible teaches that, yes, God does approve of drinking alcoholic beverages as long as one is not getting drunk. They are simple stating that the Bible teaches that yes, there is no problem with the social or casual use of wine. That theme is woven throughout the covers of the Bible. A careful reading of Scripture reveals that God intends wine and strong drink to be an important element in the lives, relationships, discussions and culture of Christians. The Old Testament confirms this over and over by how the use of wine is interwoven in every facet of their lives. I’ve presented dozens of Scripture verses in this thread pertaining to:
A. worship
God commanded that wine and strong drink be brought to him as an offering.
Sacrifices were to always to be the best available of crops, animals and alcoholic beverages.
B. punishment
God used the withholding of wine as a curse on those who were disobedient.
C. tithing
Not only was grain, olive oil and first-born males of flocks and herds to be tithed, but so too was wine.
D. rewards
If you honor the Lord he will reward you with a blessing…barns filled with grain and vats overflowing with the finest wine.
E. companionship and relationship with God
God invites those in need to come to him for wine, bread, etc., without paying for it. If you can afford it, then spend your money, he says, on your heart’s desires such as oxen, sheep or wine. After you purchase these things he wants to fellowship with you as you join together with him to eat them and rejoice. God also delights in preparing a feast of rich food and well-aged wine for his people.
F. increased wellbeing
Go ahead, God says, eat and drink with a happy heart because I approve of this. By drinking, God’s people will be made radiant, will thrive and flourish and will sparkle in his land like jewels in a crown. When grain and wine abound, it brings joy to the heart.
You need to step away from your concept that wine is a mind altering drug. If God tells us it’s a blessing from him to us and we should enjoy this special gift, then that’s good enough for me. Apparently God isn’t as concerned as you are. Such an attitude on your part is fallacious in that it is logically unsound…God says it’s not only OK but it’s good, Ozanark says it’s bad, contradicting everything God teaches in the Bible. On my part, I’ll stick with what God teaches. With such an attitude you are setting a higher standard of righteousness than the Word of God and are compromising your obedience to Christ in order to conform to the standards of our culture. That is called self-righteous legalism.
Continuing with the same paragraph you say: The Bible commands the Christian to be sober (1 Pet. 1:13; 1 Thess. 5:6-8).
I fail to see the relationship between the 1 Pet. verse and the present discussion. When Peter says “preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded…” it has nothing to do with drinking alcoholic beverages. It certainly isn’t a command to not drink. As you have throughout your post, you choose Bible verses at random to prove a point, never considering the context in which they are written. The context here is to keep a clean mind, be on the alert against spiritual forces and be temperate in all behavior. The sober-minded part deals with sober-mindedness in opinion and practice.
However, the 1 Thes. passage is perfect because it does address the problem of drunkeness. That’s what the Bible teaches time after time, do not drink so much that you become drunk. In fact, warning against the abuse of alcohol occurs more than 70 times in the Old Testament alone. However, it does not say anywhere not to drink. This is what Gary Meier et. al have been writing about for so long in this thread…drinking in moderation is encouraged…drunkeness is a sin which God does not tolerate.
There is nowhere in the Bible where God says thou shalt not drink. This is a figment of anyone’s imagination who believes the Bible teaches drinking is a sin. Rudy has presented the Scriptural position of drinking in moderation in so many ways. Throughout this thread you have ignored every argument that he proffered, always reverting to your self-serving agenda. In one of his posts he succinctly summarized the subject of this thread and the Bible’s position. You again ignored what he was saying. It can’t be any more simple. In the face of all the Biblical verses, taken in context, you still refuse to face the truth and continue to waltz around it to the tune of pick and choose.
I won’t address the remainder of your post because you have either confirmed the Bible opposes drunkeness as we all know, or you are expressing opinions completely unrelated to the topic at hand which is not considered good scholarship.
Finally, concerning the questions. It’s not what I can say as a Christian, it’s what the Bible says to Christians. Try reading the Bible in its entirety…it’s exhilarating and will reveal the truth to you if you can, as I’ve iterated above, read it with an open mind and without preconceived silly notions.
The conclusion to this whole discussion is that Christians have something that non-Christians don’t… God’s Word and God’s assurances. God’s Word tells them they have the grace and power of the Holy Spirit to constrain them. We are to receive and enjoy alcohol with thanksgiving because of God’s assurance it is a good and special blessing from God. We, as Christians who drink alcoholic beverages as the Bible teaches, need to be aware that those who teach against alcohol are still “children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine” (Eph. 4:14). We need to be sure we don’t fall into similar traps. And as a final point, we need to be strong in our faith, demonstrating to those who oppose drinking alcoholic beverages that the Holy Spirit, not alcohol, is in control of our lives.
Perhaps those in this thread who are perpetually advocating something that just isn’t in the Bible should get off their soapboxes for awhile and do something useful for a change. Like responding to the needs of water, food, shelter, counseling, jobs and other necessities of life that the Christians in Ecuador are presently facing. We have everything here in the United States…those devastated by the earthquake on the coast of Ecuador have absolutely nothing.
Wow – you must have missed his blog! Appreciate your sacrifices of time and energy, Gary.
And appreciate your well-reasoned and biblical response!
Rudy,
Don’t know anything about his blog.
Tell me about it.
g
I meant “this” blog… Glad you are back safe. Not in a position to judge whether sound or not…;-)
My response to Gary Meier will be posted in the newest portion of the comment section.
Scott, what is happening with my replies??
Interesting pick ‘n choose work! I noticed that important OT passages were left out. I do take issue with the way the author jumps into my mind, and presumes to know what conclusions I draw – before I made them known.
“What they are really teaching is God has no problem with the social or casual use of a mind altering drug.”
What Gary et al are defending, is a proper use of Scripture. When I read through Deuteronomy, I cannot help but get to chapter 14, where there is an injunction: Live too far away? Sell it, and buy… wine and other strong drink. And there are other passages where “good” is spoken of wine.
None of the group of Gary et al has defended drunkenness, so for you to “suggest” that there would therefor be “no problem with the social or casual use of a mind altering drug…”
Have you ever read the effects chocolate has? Alters your mind
Have you ever read the effects caffeine has? Alters your mind.
Have you ever read the effects Ketchup has? Alters your mind
Have you ever read the effects meditation has? Alters your mind
Have you ever read the effects painkillers have? Alters your mind
So, if mind-altering is an argument, please let me know when you stop using any of the above..
As Gary et al have made clear, time and again, there is no defense for drunkenness – as there is no defense (other than MAYBE medical) for over-eating. And note that gluttony IS indeed condemned in Scripture, as drunkenness is. O wait, I forgot: We can eat in moderation.
Whoa! Can we apply the same logic to wine??
Now, as to your list of questions.
Allow me to add some subjects:
– Eating too much
– Working to much
– Being involved with sports too much
– Working as a preacher too much
Looking forward to your answers to these questions.
Jesus said that John had not come drinking wine but Jesus said that He had. So, I choose to believe Jesus since He never sinned and therefore, He never lied! It’s that simple.
The author succinctly states the correct instruction from God when the author says: …..no longer continue any excessive drinking of alcohol….. Exactly! God tells us over and over not to drink to excessive!
Thats. This is the point many of us have been hammering home for the past six months. Unfortunately, some involved in this discussion just don’t get it.
Jesus stated that John had come neither eating or drinking wine but that Jesus himself had come eating and drinking (wine). So anyone who says Jesus never drank wine is saying He lied, which we all know is a sin. However, Jesus never sinned so I choose to believe what He said and reject fallible, sinful men’s faulty logic and conclusions. And the wine in question was not grape juice since John did not any restriction against drinking grape juice, only wine. Finally, if Jesus was only drinking grape juice, why would people accuse him of being a drunkard? That makes no logical sense either. Also, God never tells us that drinking wine is a sin unless it is to excess (aka drunkenness). And there a few examples in the Bible of what drunkenness really is so please read those. Because it doesn’t occur with the first sip of wine as many try to have you believe. But if you end up naked and uncovered or you slept with one or more of your children, then you were most likely drunk! And so then you sinned. But the good news is that you can be forgiven for that sin!
A couple points about the wine that Jesus and the disciples drank at the Last Supper. I’ll start by saying that non-alcoholic grape juice wasn’t even a thing during that time; it was invented in 1869 by Mr. Welch! I’ll back that up with a little science. I’f you buy a bag of gapes at the market, you’ll note that they are covered with a white, powdery substance call bloom. This consists of yeast, mold, and bacteria. When a grape is crushed, the process of fermentation happens immediately. The yeast on the grape’s skin interacts with the sugar in the grape’s interior; the by-product of this chemical transaction is alcohol. In 1869, 7 years after Pasteur invented pasteurization, Welch applied the technique to grape juice and became the first person ever to prevent the juice from turning into wine. The conclusion I really want to make is that, as the author said, Jesus wanted unleavened bread and unleavened wine. No leaven was to be found anywhere in the house. Grapes naturally have leaven all over them. If they could have drank the juice before it became wine, it would be chock-full of leaven. Not until the fermentation has occurred and the alcohol level gets to at least 10% is the natural leaven killed. It isn’t unleavened UNTIL it is fermented.
Natural fermentation of wine in Bible times didn’t take it anywhere near 10% alcohol, closer to 3%. Only modern fermentation has created the higher alcohol levels, with sherry running as high as 35%. It’s these higher levels that make today’s wine and hard drink even more problematic, and worthy of the Biblical warnings of Proverbs 20, et al. To argue otherwise is irresponsible and sinful in a Church that is in great need of how to engage in recovery ministry effectively. Let Romans 14 – especially 14:22 – and 15:1 speak to our hearts about how to love those with addictions, and speak to our own personal behavior.
I’d like to modify my comments here about natural fermentation in two ways, one clearly wild yeast can aide the natural fermentation of grape juice, and evidently to about the 6% level. Attentive wine makers in Roman and Greek circles probably pushed that to 10%, but straight wine was not often drunk, wine was commonly diluted 2 -6 times. The alcohol, even in the diluted wine made wine safer than a lot of water which would need to be boiled, and so the reel was definitely a practical aspect to wine that does not exist today.
https://winemakermag.com/758-wild-yeast-the-pros-and-cons-of-spontaneous-fermentation
“That being said, why such caution? Quite simply, it is the unpredictable nature of spontaneous fermentation that either attracts us as winemakers, or scares us off. One of the most common characteristics of indigenous yeasts — even good ones — is their low resistance to alcohol. Many wild types of yeast are unable to perform once alcohol levels reach 6%. The result is stuck fermentation, flabby wine with a low immune system, and a pile of unwanted residual sugar — to name just a few problems.”
Now dilution of a wine produced for the masses leaves a pretty weak wine based on alcohol by volume (ABV). This would make socioeconomic sense, and yet it was still possible to imbibe. It was also possible to for the rich to have higher alcohol content, which also was consistent with Greek and Roman culture. All of that is consistent with Jesus’ sinless nature, and man’s sinfulness regarding alcohol.
None of this addresses our responsibility to the billion+ people that suffer from problem drinking, and alcoholism (Romans 14 and 15:1, et al), and how we should then live, all super vital questions that the pro drinking in public as Christians crowd does not like to address. And yes Virginia, that crowd most definitely exists.
When my youngest son was about 13 or so, he would argue with me about certain things. He asked for reasons for some of my expectations and when I gave him those, he would tell me that “that’s no argument.”
You do the same thing Bruce, when you say that people have not dealt with the Romans 14 passage. Several have tried to show you that one passage does not negate another. That the “pro drinking Christian crowd…” does not care about the Romans 14 passage is just not true. What that “crowd” is trying to help you understand that the bible does not forbid the drinking of wine – no matter what the alcohol content is or was.
You are obviously not familiar with the rest of the chapter.
Don’t judge one on eating, drinking
Who are you to judge
And other statements found throughout the chapter. I have offered to deal with Romans 14 several times – but no comment from you.
What I see so far, is a “crowd” which misinterpreted scripture. And which judges others. And assumes attitudes to be present by those who disagree with this “crowd.”
On the other side I see people who read the bible in its entirety, and draw correct conclusions from what is written. And who believe both freedom and injunction to be applicable. Yes to drinking wine, no to drunkenness.
So, if you want to spend some time with me and go through Romans 14, I’ll be more than happy to do so.
Hi Rudy, of course the side that’s enlightened, awesome, super Biblically literate, and we’ll reasoned is your side (whatever that means). LOL. If you do say so yourself. Listen, all of us, myself surely included, are sinners, and are hardly perfect. The greatest people I know are also the most humble. A little food for thought.
But given the context of this conversation turns out to be Christian living and behavior, I have no trouble whatsoever defending the most vulnerable among us. If you choose not to or choose to overlook them for convenience, I would recommend you re-read the life of Christ, and who He so passionately defended (like children, and the sick – you know vulnerable, weaker brothers and sisters.)
Yes, I’d love to hear your take on Romans 14, because it calls us to sacrifice for our vulnerable brothers and sisters, and there can be nothing bad that happens as we ponder how to apply that.
Rudy, you presented that so well and succinctly. I always appreciate you contributions to this discussion.
Thank you! Since English is a second language for me, I have to think a bitlonger about what and how I write…
OK, what nationality is Schellekens…in other words, what is your first language?
Dutch. I moved here 20 years ago this August.
More than two-thirds (68.8 percent) of adults are considered to be overweight or obese. More than one-third (35.7 percent) of adults are considered to be obese. More than 1 in 20 (6.3 percent) have extreme obesity. Almost 3 in 4 men (74 percent) are considered to be overweight or obese.
==
Depending on which statistics you believe, 18 – 33% of the population is either alcoholic or a problem drinker.
Guess which of the two is the bigger problem?
Seattle. What is your source for the statement that more than one billion people suffer from problem drinking and alcoholism! That seems to be an excessive statement.
Steve,
You make several powerful points that are very apropos to this subject. You should be warned, however, that many people participating in this debate will disagree with your thesis. They maintain, in the face of facts to the contrary, that the wine in Jesus’ time didn’t contain more than 3% alcohol. They have never provided any type of documentation backing up their statements. How they could believe this is beyond comprehension.
I’m adding just a few comments to further support your comments. As you said, fermentation requires two things, both contained in and on the grapes…sugar and yeast. These are natural sugars within the grape and wild yeasts living on the skin. Fermentation begins immediately when the grape is crushed and continues until most or all the sugar has been turned into alcohol. Naturally fermented wine is between 10 & 14% alcohol At this alcohol level, the yeasts on the grape die.
Today, conventionally grown grapes have little or no wild yeast on their skins, so winemakers have to resort to using commercially produced yeast. Of course, by using commercial yeast, wines today lack character, personality, a pleasing odor, are less complex and don’t have the wide variety of taste common to naturally fermented wine.
Another premise of the 3% crowd is that there are two different kinds of wine mentioned in the Bible, one in a positive sense and the other in a negative sense. These folks say that when wine is mentioned in a positive sense the Bible is speaking of grape juice and in a negative manner it is addressing alcoholic wine. They fail to see that such a distinction just doesn’t exist in the Bible. When the Bible speaks negatively of wine it’s referring to the abuse of alcohol. When speaking positively it’s referring to the moderate use of it. As you so adroitly put it, there was no such thing as non-alcoholic grape juice in Biblical times.
Finally, historical scholarship does not support low alcohol content during Biblical times. It would be difficult to find a scholar agreeing that Biblical wine contained less than 10% alcohol.
And here we have a series of well reasoned, objective arguments. No insults. No derogatory remarks about attitudes. In other words, it CAN be done! Thank you, Steve and Gary
Yes Rudy, and here are more facts about the benefits of drinking, presented in a well reasoned, objective argument without insults or derogatory remarks about attitudes. Two more scientific studies have been released extolling the benefits of drinking alcoholic beverages. As with the more than 60 previous studies, these latest ones provide additional information on how drinking alcohol is extremely good for one’s health. This is especially important for Christians, because their bodies are considered to be the temple of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Christians are obligated to conduct themselves in such a way that they will maintain their bodies as fit and healthy as possible. The humongous mountain of evidence showing the health benefits of drinking can only lead a Christian to one conclusion…they must drink moderately to protect their bodies, the Temple of the Holy Spirit.
Here’s the details of the first study as reported by Tonia Reinhard, MS, RD of Wayne State University. First, the American Heart Association recommends eating lots of fish. The omega-3 fatty acids in fish reduce triglycerides, irregular heartbeats and blood pressure and slow the growth of arterial plaques. That’s a whole bunch of benefits from fish eating. However, a large European study shows that by drinking wine (or beer or spirits) with the fish, the amounts of omega-3 increased dramatically.
A second study by researchers at Ben-Gurion University, Israel, found that by drinking five ounces of wine each day with dinner, people with controlled type 2 diabetes and on a Mediterranean diet, experienced better health than those not drinking wine. Specifically, their HDL (good cholesterol) rose 10%, their triglycerides and fasting plasma glucose levels decreased as did their ratio of total cholesterol to HDL. It also turned out that those drinking wine experienced better sleep than people who drank mineral water.
As Timothy was taught by Paul…stop drinking only water and begin to regularly drink a moderate amount of wine for your stomach and your frequent ailments. As God repeated many times…I have given you wine as a blessing. As Jeremiah emphasized… God’s people will be made radiant because of the many gifts the Lord has given them, including good crops of wine. As Solomon encouraged others…go ahead, eat your food and drink your wine with a happy heart for God approves of this. As Zechariah wrote…God’s people will thrive and flourish when they eat and drink God’s blessings of bread and wine he has given them.
Time and again, science has proven the Bible to be correct. So should Christians today heed the teachings of the Bible and the supporting studies of modern science and drink a moderate amount of wine (or any alcoholic beverage) daily to maintain and increase healthy bodies.
Here’s an unavoidable fact that the pro drinking crowd wants to sweep under the carpet. 15% of the populace are problem drinkers or addicted to alcohol. For them, there are no benefits to drinking. With compassion, we do well to recall this, and understand the negative impacts on 1.1 billion of our brothers and sisters.
There is no such thing as a pro drinking crowd. What there is is a whole crowd of Christians who read the Bible and believe the truths contained therein. It’s accepted by everyone that some people do have problems with alcohol. God knew that when he wrote the Bible. That’s why there are so many warnings about abusing wine. There are warnings, also, about gluttony, overeating and addiction to food. The amount of the populace that are problem eaters and obese is far more than 15%. Scientists and nutritionists tell us that the impact of this serious addiction to food by such a huge segment of society has an extremely negative impact on this country. Does the pro eating crowd want to sweep this under the carpet?
Gluttony in the Bible? How would you know if you are gluttonous?
Source? I imagine that is higher. I see drunks everywhere.
Seeing drunks everywhere isn’t really any kind of a scientific study or poll. You must come from a pretty wild place. I myself haven’t seen a drunk for months, if not years.
Gary, Rudy, Eating disorders and addictions, and general poor health is a massive problem, and requires great compassion and wisdom. People must eat to live, and so clearly their relationship with food, will have long term impact on their lives, on their children’s lives, and on those around them. Applying the weaker brother teaching is Rimams 14, 15:1, we should be super careful around obese brothers and sisters, and encourage them in a pursuit of a healthier relationship with food and exercise. But none of us can simply not eat in that encouragement. We may choose to be discrete and not eat around a person in such a condition, but moderate eating around them will not lead that person further away from health.
Moderate drinking around an alcoholic or addicted person however could very well lead them away from their recovery. This simple fact makes alcohol and food addictions qualitatively different. The food addict in recovery must arrive at a healthy relationship with food, where the alcoholic MUST give up alcohol completely.
Rudy, Gary, we must be concerned for both of these massive, hurting, vulnerable groups, and not pitting one group’s addictions as more important than the other’s. We should encourage and foster support groups for both.
The issue for loving and supporting the alcoholic, is safety and trust – as it is for the food addict. But because effective recovery for the alcoholic requires total abstinence, we must be particularly careful in dealing with our weaker brothers and sisters who have that addiction/problem.
This is where the Christian vogue drinking culture falls flat on its face. How can they love this cohort, and openly, publicly drink in front of them. I argue they cannot, and are being used to greatly discourage many in recovery who are their brothers and sisters.
Similar things can be said of those kind of Christian potlucks that encourage our obese brothers and sisters to overeat, and not exercise. But we all still must eat, and there are ways of having public meals without discouraging, and in fact encouraging such believers.
I maintain we must love both groups well, and sacrificially. Can we agree?
Seattle.
Very well put. I appreciated your latest contribution to our discussion. I do have one comment, however. Nowhere, in all these comments, has anyone ever suggested we should drink in front of an alcoholic. We have a very dear friend who has been fighting this thing for 30,40 years. We don’t drink in front of her nor do we even mention alcohol. Alcohol has torn up the entire family because this friend just hasn’t been able to kick the habit. Even after multiple stays in recovery centers such as Betty Ford’s. I think everyone will agree with you that it is a scourge. And, yes, we don’t disagree with you that we must love, support and encourage our brothers and sisters who are under this bondage.
indeed, that is one of our obligation – to be a support system for those who struggle. One young man in our congregation struggles against alcoholism, and has paid a big price. But he is working hard, and by being a helper for others in those same circumstances he is an amazing influence for Christ.
Amen!
The Pharisees called Jesus a winebibber a drunk a friend of politicians…why? It wasn’t because he drank a non alcoholic wine it’s because of people that think like Pharisees. When u read the life of Christ he was against people that looked down on people..that act like they have no issues so I do believe you can drink in moderation and do not drink in excessiveness. Do not be drunk everything we do has to be done in moderation or else we make it an idol…..
He was also accused of having a demon and of being a Samaritan in John 8:48, neither of which were true. The purpose of the Pharisees ad hominem attacks were to discredit Jesus, not to paint an accurate picture of Him. Are you willing to take the word of Jesus’ enemies above the warnings of the Holy Spirit regarding alcohol?
Gary said: “As is always the case, the Bible has again been proven correct. More than 60 scientific studies have established the importance of drinking alcoholic beverages to maintain good health and to prolong a persons life.”
Tanins in grapes have been proven to reduce incidence of heart disease. But you don’t need to drink wine to get the benefits of tanins.
I believe the study you cite from Harvard 2007 is:http://archive.sph.harvard.edu/press-releases/2007-releases/press01012007.html
And what’s interesting about that is that moderate drinking in hypertensive men could decrease risk of high blood pressure related illness and death. Could. And correlation is not causation. What about decreasing your tension in other ways, through good exercise, diet, prayer and meditation?
The same study cites the danger of drinking more than 1-2 drinks per day.
Alcohol is no panacea, for sure. Over drinking is real and nasty. The church needs to support and provide a healing balm for those in alcohol addiction recovery. Period. It’s Biblical to do so. [Romans 14, and 15:1, er al.]
Vinyl is the best way to play music – still. But records can and do break.
With all due respect, Bruce, you are beginning to sound like one.
No one denies the fact that abusing alcohol is wrong.
The point is that one cannot use the biblical text in the way it is used by contributors like Melanie.
No only is it bad exegesis, bad hermeneutics, bad etymology, it’s also making a book of logic sound illogical.
Ah, I see Rudy. If I say something you don’t agree with, you will, like a broken record (ironic hmm?) accuse me of poor Biblical scholarship, exegesis, hermaneutics, and so forth.
But you refuse to see it don’t you? How poor your application of Scripture is. For you this discussion is about some sort of elegance that you claim I don’t have toward the Biblical position on drinking alcohol. Ah, I’ve never said flatly that Christians can’t drink. But in fact if you open your mind and heart Rudy, you’ll see that the Biblical application here – the correct exegesis – is not a self cenfered one, but one that saves us from our sin and self centeredness, and brings us – by Jesus divine power – toward sacrificial love of God and others. Jesus own attitude and approach to alcohol, the Father’s approach, the Apostle Paul’s approach, was one of caution and concern for others. Jesus was sinless in his approach to alcohol. He would not have caused others to sin, as He was/is sinless. His concern for others extended so far beyond whether 85% of them could drink, toward understanding and compassion for those 15% that could not handle drink. His approach was perfect and sinless, and if we’re to exegete Scripture well, we need to imitate Jesus’ other centered approach. Jesus would not have us forget the 15% of the crowds that tended toward addiction. He would not act nor teach as if they didn’t exist. No, Jesus would say if anything made you sin to ROOT it out, and He conducted His life that way, and we’re to conduct our lives that way!
So am I as poor at exegesis as you say? Or are you missing the primary theme of the Bible, in your headlong attempt to imagine that those 15% of human beings don’t apply in this discussion?
I think that Jesus obvious and primary concern for the sinner, for example, for the addict, and in dealing with that sin completely, is THE central theme of all of Scripture.
And Romans 14, 15:1, and all other Scripture pertinent to this topic are relevant, as all Scripture is profitable for teaching, reproof, and training in righteousness.
Once again. No one is advocating to go out, get riproaring drunk.
But Romans 14 has nothing to do with what the Bible says about the use of alcohol. It has nothing to do with the definition of the words used in the bible re wine/grape juice.
It does not speak to MEANINGS and DEFINITIONS.
Instead of wine, imagine the word BAPTISM.
Would Melanie argue that SPRINKLING is the definition, and the only definition, and that those who advocate for immersion are fake Christians. She would refer to articles read, personal definitions – we would have the same situation.
Would you quote Romans 14? After all, the weaker member must be considered here…
And Bruce, there is an even more important aspect to THAT discussion!
If someone is careless in dealing with one Biblical concept, there us carelessness in others.
So, all of us agree with how behavior is to be modeled. That is not the issue
Noah planted a vineyard and. Got drunk.
Jeanne – and in so doing Noah was sinful. Since modern wine has more alcohol than Bible wine, the Biblical warnings are even more pertinent. Romans 14, and 15:1, et al, also surely apply. Whatever Jesus drank or made, He did not sin.
That’s for sure Jeanne, he got roaring drunk. And that’s precisely what the Bible warns against…the abuse of alcohol. It’s interesting that the word used for wine concerning Noah’s drunkenness is the same word used for the wine Jesus made at the wedding feast. Both strongly alcoholic.
Do not be filled with wine WHEREIN IS EXCESS. But be filled with the Spirit. Doesn’t this article warns us to be careful in how we perceive the usage of the word “wine” in the bible, for it in biblical times was unfermented grape juice. The bible tells us that the scripture is of no private interpretion. To choose out scripture where we twist it to fit out own carnal desires is missing the whole point. I am a delivered born-again Christian, free from drugs and alcohol. Experiencing spirit baptism with evidence of speaking in tongues is this “New wine” His spirit filling me bubbling up to everlasting life. The bible speak of the Spirit leading and guiding into ALL truth, and on the subjuct of wine no where is even moderation of alcoholic beverages admonished, but rather the exact opposite. The wine (alcoholic) in itself it filled with excess, and you to know that if you’ve considered it only dabbling or a social drink. God calls us to be separarte and live a holy life, if you are truly hunger to please the Lord Jesus Christ he will reveal to you, and lead you instead of your only fleshly desires!
Kara, hope you enjoyed your celebration of Christmas and I wish for you the most blessed year of 2016.
Kara, as you’ve seen by reading all the previous posts, this topic of drinking wine and strong drink has been covered adnauseam. I’m sure, Kara, that you are a sincere Christian but based on your comments it’s evident that you are misguided in your understanding of Holy Scripture. Ignorance is not becoming to Christians and makes the rest of us look bad.
For instance, consider your statement that “in Biblical times wine was unfermented grape juice”. That is complete nonsense. The Bible is replete with descriptions of and warnings against drunkenness from wine. They didn’t get drunk on unfermented grape juice. The wine in the Bible was always alcoholic and contained enough alcohol to get people seriously drunk.
Concerning drinking in moderation. You say this isn’t found anywhere in the Bible. To the contrary, the teaching of drinking in moderation is found throughout the pages of Holy Scripture. Here are a few instances. 1 Tim. 3:8 – “deacons must not be heavy drinkers” means they should drink in moderation, don’t overdrink. 1 Tim. 5:23 – “No longer drink only water, but use a little wine” also teaches drinking in moderation. Check out all the warnings against drunkenness in both the Old Testament and New Testament Kara. For instance, Ephesians 5:18 says “do not get drunk with wine”. It doesn’t say don’t drink wine. Those warnings are teaching us that if we drink, we must do so in moderation. The dictionary informs us that moderation means “avoiding extremes of behavior, observing reasonable limits”. If you read the Bible carefully and with an open mind, you will never find an instant where drinking for Christian (or anyone else, for that matter) is prohibited.
Kara, I Implore you to begin a thorough study of Holy Scripture so you will discover the Truth as taught by God. The Truth will not be revealed to you if you read the Bible from an emotional standpoint, changing it’s true meaning to conform to what you believe the Bible should say and teach. In pursuing the Truth, Christians need to cleanse their minds of all the clutter of false teachings and misconceptions about Christianity into which they have been led and begin anew. These cleansed minds will then become a sponge that will enthusiastically soak up the true teachings of the Bible. Romans 12:2 tells us not to be conformed to this world. God makes it clear that we are to be transformed by the renewal of our minds. Get the garbage out of our heads and let the resulting vacuum be filled with God’s Truth. Only when this happens will Christians “discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect“.
If you are capable of doing that, you will be surprised what the Bible actually teaches about wine and strong drink. You will find drinking alcoholic beverages is interwoven throughout Scripture as being an important positive element in the lives, relationships, discussions and culture of Gods people, especially Christians. Wine and strong drink are considered to be a blessing from God, a special gift to his people, extremely good, those who drink it will thrive and flourish and it brings joy to the heart (I can furnish Scripture references for all these statements).
Kara, there is so much disunity and discord in God’s Church today that we don’t need to contribute to this sorry state by our ignorance. Hosea 4:6 says: “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge”. That’s what has happened in Christ’s Church today, Christians are destroying it because they reject Biblical knowledge and pontificate on what they want the Bible to say. You have contributed to the discombobulation of God’s Church by your totally unscriptural statements about wine being unfermented grape juice and claiming that the Bible teaches Christians it is a sin to drink alcoholic beverages.
Please, Kara, begin today to study the Bible earnestly, each time before opening its pages asking Holy Spirit to reveal the Truth to you. This is imperative of every Christian to insure the Christian Church will not be reduced to irrelevancy.
Good and true words Gary! Hopefully your words will be heard. 👍
Thanks for the compliment James. Unfortunately, in most cases such as Kara’s, they fall on deaf ears. Happy New Year.