What Kind of Wine Did Jesus Drink?

Is this true that Jesus drank alcoholic wine as the lyrics, “Cause I heard Jesus, He drank wine”? Some Christians question this. What kind of wine did Jesus drink? Did Jesus drink intoxicating amounts of wine?

The Definition of Biblical Wine

Many have assumed that the word “wine” in the Bible is always alcoholic or equivalent to modern wine. The Bible affirms that “wine” could mean alcoholic wine of varying amounts or non-alcoholic grape juice (1 Tim 3:8; Titus 2:3).

Remember the Bible was originally written in the languages of Hebrew and Greek, so the meaning and nuances of words are slightly or very different from the corresponding English word. Biblical “wine” is grape juice that may or may not have fermented. Both in Hebrew and Greek, the words translated “wine” can refer to non-alcoholic juice or fermented wine. The Hebrew word is yayin and the Greek is oinos.

There are a number of examples of unfermented “wine.” Note the passages and references to non-alcoholic wine throughout the Bible:

  • “Wine” is the blood of the grape (Gen 49:11–12, Heb. yayin, Deut 32:14, Heb chemer).
  • The vineyard is the place of “red wine” (Isa 27:2, Heb. chemer).
  • “Wine” refers to the grape juice from the grapes of the field (Deut 11:14, 2 Chr 31:5, Heb tirosh, Jer 40:10, 12, Heb. yayin).
  • Scripture describes “wine” that is in the grape (Isa 65:8, Heb. tirosh).
  • The grape juice of the wine-press is “wine” (Prov 3:10, Heb. tirosh, Isa 16:10, Jer 48:33, Heb. yayin).

These references clearly show that the word “wine” can simply refer to grape juice in the Bible.

In reading the Old Testament, many are surprised that the Bible versions represent six different Hebrew words “wine” for which two words exclude alcohol. These are asis means “sweet grape juice” or “new grape juice,” and another word hemer simply means “grape juice.” Both words have no reference to alcohol, and yet translators interpret these words as “wine” to avoid interpreting the contexts with its nuances and ambiguity. Therefore, one must remain careful not to assume that the word “wine” means alcoholic wine.[1] [2]

With an honest heart, may God’s grace encourage all believers to reconsider biblical wine. With the previous knowledge, a study of the Scriptures reveal that there is not one positive statement about intoxicating wine or any such drink throughout the Bible. There are positive words about non-alcoholic “wine” that many people presume to encourage the use of intoxicating wine. However, these positive passages of grape juice do not necessitate a reference to alcohol in any way (Gen 14:18; Num 15:5–10; Deut 14:26; Psa 104:15; Isa 55:1; Amos 9:14; John 2:1–11; 1 Tim 5:23). References to the translations of “strong drink” or “liquor” can also refer to today’s cider (cf. Deut 14:26; Wycliffe’s Bible).

There are many today professing a faith in Jesus who look to Jesus’s drinking of wine to support their excessive drinking. By God’s grace, God has saved Christians from excessive drinking (1 Pet 4:3). Therefore, may every Christian remain very careful. Many are delivering destructive reasons to their brothers and sisters in Christ who struggle with alcohol so that they justify giving into excessive drinking. The consequences may be disastrous and extensive even to death. The Christian approach to alcohol is not to judge or condemn the person who may drink without excess and drunkenness, but the Christian must follow the biblical examples and warn those who do drink, linger, and look at the cup (Prov 23:29–35; Rom 14:17–22).

Bible Wine and Today’s Wine

In the Bible, alcoholic wine is not like wine today. The sugar of grape juice can only ferment to 3 or 4% alcohol with wild yeast. For grape juice to exceed 4% alcohol, then the winemaker must add yeast. The yeast added to ancient wines produced between 4–10% alcohol. Alcohol kills these yeast cells and prevents levels of alcohol from exceeding 10%. Today, wines average 12–18% alcohol due to modern fermentation by adding sulfur dioxide and Saccharomyces (a cultured GMO yeast) to a late harvest of ripened grapes with higher fructose (Winemaker Magazine, UC DavisInternational Biblical Encyclopedia, “Bible Study Guide,” “Alcohol in the Church,” Bible Wine). Today’s wine is not like biblical wine in regards to alcoholic content. Due to the later invention of distilling, strong drinks like liquor exceed 20% alcohol.

When reading the word “wine” in the Bible, the word may simply refer to grape juice or intoxicating wine not exceeding 10% alcohol. However, biblical wine is certainly not like wine today. Because of the use of the word “wine” in English Bibles, many presume that Jesus drank alcoholic wine. Again, the Greek word oinos can refer to grape juice that is either alcoholic or nonalcoholic wine throughout the Bible. The context reveals whether wine is alcoholic or not. Jesus did not drink modern wine. The methods for fermenting highly-alcoholic wine had not yet been invented.

Jesus’s opponents accused Him of being a “wine-drinker” from the Greek oinopoteis, because He came freely eating and also drinking grape juice unlike John the Baptist who restricted his eating and drinking (Matt 11:18–19; Luke 7:33–34). These antagonists appear to accuse Jesus of drinking alcohol. However, when the reader considers the wedding that Jesus attended in Cana and Jesus’s institution of the Lord’s Supper, then His drinking of wine is not what many think.

Water to Wine

What about Jesus turning water to wine? Many are mistaken to think that Jesus turned water into intoxicating wine at the wedding in Cana, a small town in Galilee (John 2). One must assume this “wine,” oinos, was alcoholic.

These scriptures infers that the wedding guests “have well drunk” a large amount of oinos, which the Greek word translated “well drunk” is methuo meaning literally to fill or make full. This word is also the word translated “drunk” referring to drunkenness by drinking intoxicating wine or filling oneself with nonalcoholic wine (Gingrich and Danker’s lexicon). Which is more likely: that Jesus created intoxicating wine for those who were drunk or that He made fresh “new wine” for those who had filled themselves with the previous nonalcoholic wine? If one interprets this passage as Jesus made alcoholic wine, then Jesus created more intoxicating wine to those who were already drunk. If one perceives that the wedding guests were simply full of nonalcoholic wine, then Jesus made “new wine” with little or no alcohol. The reference to the guests becoming full also implies that the wedding feast was relatively short.

Furthermore, consider that Jesus provided them with “new wine” as though deliver from the pressing of grapes. The making of new wine magnifies Jesus’s sign, because this was just before the Passover and the first harvest. Jesus could not have made intoxicating wine at the wedding feast in Cana. The reference to Jesus’s wine as “good wine” indicates fresh grape juice before the first harvest. Therefore, Jesus’s producing of fresh grape juice would have been an evident wonder of God, because this was late in the year just before Passover when old wine remained (John 2:13).

This wedding feast would have occurred in a short amount of time if one assumes that the guests drank intoxicating wine and became drunk; although, wedding feasts may last a day and sometimes more (The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah). By supposing intoxicating wine, Jesus would have made more intoxicating wine amounting to between 120 to 180 gallons of “the good wine.” If there were three hundred people there to drink another 150 gallons, these would have already each had much alcoholic wine considering that “the guests have well drunk.” Jesus would have given each guest an additional 64 ounces of alcoholic wine. The average person would have drunk another 4–6 drinks of alcoholic wine. Jesus would have poisoned a wedding party of three hundred attendants from the toxin of ethyl alcohol, and the guests would had been vomiting and passing out.

Now, consider a wedding party of a thousand guests. If one thousand people drank one hundred and fifty gallons of fermented wine that Jesus supposedly made, then the average amount of wine consumed by each person would have been 19.2 ounces of wine having previously well drunk. Presuming that this wine contained 10% alcohol, Jesus would have aided a thousand people in binge drinking having intoxicated the guests with three additional drinks who were already intoxicated — “have well drunk.” For each guest to have had simply two more drinks, then the wedding would have had at least 2,400 attendees. Despite the number in attendance, Jesus would have presumably contributed a considerable amount alcohol to those who were already drunk. The scenario of Jesus producing alcoholic wine appears irrational.

If Jesus did make a great amount of fermented wine, He would had aided the sin of drunkenness, excessive drinking, and participated in a drinking party, which are all condemned by His Spirit in the apostolic Scriptures (1 Pet 4:3). To assume that Jesus made intoxicating wine is to assume that after everyone had drunk all the other intoxicating wine, then they needed more intoxicating wine and Jesus was the person to do this. For those proposing that Jesus made highly intoxicating wine like today’s wine, 16–24 oz. of today’s wine would intoxicate anyone at an alcoholic level of 12–15% according to the CDC. Such intoxicating wine would have been an absurdity at this wedding.

Wine and the Lord’s Supper

Did Jesus use alcoholic wine in the Lord’s Supper? Many have justified excessive drinking and drunkenness by how many churches have made alcoholic wine a part of the “Eucharist,” the Lord’s Supper. Did Jesus use highly alcoholic wine when He instituted the Lord’s Supper? No, the Scriptures never use the word “wine” in any of the four accounts of Christ instituting the Lord’s Supper. Jesus mentioned the specific content of the cup containing “the fruit of the grapevine.” Alcoholic wine has no reference in Scripture to the Lord’s Supper. The Greek word for “wine” is never used in Scripture to describe any part of the Lord’s Supper. Many have again presumed that Jesus used alcoholic wine in the Lord’s Supper for their own purposes of justifying their use of wine according to Jesus’s use.

Furthermore, Jesus used unleavened bread because it was the time of the Passover, which is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. They threw out all leaven by God’s command including the leavened bread. Did throwing out the yeast mean that Israel must throw out the yeast, the bread with yeast, and yet leave the grape juice yeast? The reader should consider the removing of yeast in Exodus 13:6–7.

When Jesus used “fruit of the grapevine” in the Lord’s Supper, the only possible fermentation would be between 0–4% because of wild yeast after a week of exposure. If one assumed this was alcoholic wine, then the highest level of alcohol could reach 4%. When Jesus used “the fruit of the grapevine,” then the reader may find that this cup would have been nonalcoholic or never exceeded 4% alcohol. The intent of the cup of the Lord was not to intoxicate.

What about those who got drunk over the Lord’s Supper within the Bible? This is another misconception from the use of the Greek word methuo, which can mean drunk or filled. Remember that this is word from the Wedding Feast recorded in John 2. First Corinthians 11:21–22 depicts, “Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk [methuo].” Some ate the Lord’s Supper as a meal so that they were filled, and those who drank were also filled. If one still assumes that these Christians became drunk in the assembly using the grape juice for the Lord’s Supper, then they must also presume that those drinking brought enough intoxicating wine to get drunk and yet intended to use such for the Lord’s Supper. This implies that some of these Christians brought alcoholic wine for others, and they decided to simply drink that wine in assembly rather than wait for others. However, alcoholic wine is still an assumption. First Corinthians 11 is not a conclusive source to support the assertion that the Lord’s Supper consisted of intoxicating wine.

Warnings about Wine

As the Scriptures warn against wine, Christians must also warn against the use of such alcohol. Solomon warned by the wisdom of God,

Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it swirls around smoothly; At the last it bites like a serpent, And stings like a viper. Your eyes will see strange things, And your heart will utter perverse things. (Prov 23:31–33)

Therefore, “Wine is a mocker, Strong drink is a brawler, And whoever is led astray by it is not wise” (Prov 20:1). There is not one positive statement about alcohol in the Bible. The New Testament teaches that Christians are not to walk in drunkenness filling themselves with alcohol. The misuse of the word “wine” has become the means for many to presume that God is permissive of the excessive drinking of alcohol to some level of intoxication. By the word “wine,” many try to justify the sins of drunkenness and excessive drinking.

The Greek word translated “drunkenness” literally means “filling oneself” in Scripture (Eph 5:18–19; cf. Rom 13:13). Christ’s Spirit in Galatians 5:19–21 teaches that such “drunkenness” is a “work of the flesh” and “those who are doing such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5 also condemned “wild parties” or “revelries” where any of the list of sins like drunkenness would constitute a party as sinful and carnal. Christ also reveals in 1 Corinthians 6:10 that drunkards “will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Drunkenness and filling one’s body with intoxicants is a sin.

Filling oneself with alcohol is evil and compromises the sobriety of the Christian conscience — one’s heart (Rom 2:14–15; 1 John 3:19-–21). Christ’s words and those of His Apostles and prophets urge all to reconsider, and so Christians should do likewise. First Peter 4:3 warns, “For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Nations want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness [lit. excessive drinking], orgies, drinking parties [lit. drinkings], and lawless idolatry.” The word for “drunkenness” here is not the usually word for drunkenness in Greek, but this word is oinophlugia made of two words oinos meaning “wine” and phlugia is “to do something in excess.” Excessive drinking is a sin. Do not overlook the reference to drinking parties translated from the Greek word potos, which denotes occasions for drinking.

Followers of Christ must remain sober and make no provision to become drunk on any level (1 Thess 5:8). Christians cannot participate in events that meet and center around drinking (1 Pet 4:3). Christ had no part with drunkenness and drinking parties, so His followers must not. While Christians should not condemn their brother over a drink, every Christian has the scriptural example and the foresight to warn against its use and against looking at the cup (Prov 23:29–35; Rom 14:17–22).

Conclusion

The wine that Jesus drank was not intoxicating any more than grape juice with no more than 4% alcohol. Jesus neither encouraged drunkenness nor is He recorded to have used intoxicating wine. Anyone using alcohol based upon Jesus must reconsider their position. If anyone uses Jesus to justify excessive drinking, drunkenness, and drinking events, then let that person hear this plea to rethink their views according to the words and life of Christ. The reality is that the Bible neither promotes nor supports the drinking of intoxicants. God’s grace compels Christians to no longer continue any sin because they have been forgiven.

Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. (Rom 13:13–14)


Of Wine and Wineskins

Wine in the Lord’s Supper?

Is Drinking a Sin in the Bible?

Reconsider Being Biblically Drunk

About Scott Shifferd Jr.

Minister, church of Christ in Jacksonville, FL. Husband and father of four. Email: ScottJon82[at]yahoo.com
This entry was posted in Christ, Church of Christ and tagged , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

623 Responses to What Kind of Wine Did Jesus Drink?

  1. “The Christian approach to alcohol is not to judge or condemn the person who may drink without excess and drunkenness, but the Christian must follow the biblical examples and warn those who do drink, linger, and look at the cup (Prov 23:29–35; Rom 14:17–22).”

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    • Schellekens rudy says:

      It IS the Christians responsibility to deal with brethren who have drinking problems.

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    • Gary W. Meier says:

      Correct. The admonition is to drink in moderation.

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        • Gary W. Meier says:

          1 tim. 3:8 – “deacons must not be heavy drinkers”…that means drink in moderation, don’t overdrink.
          1 tim. 5:23 – “No longer drink only water, but use a little wine”…that means don’t get drunk, drink moderately.
          Definition of moderation: ” avoiding extremes of behavior, observing reasonable limits”. Therefore, all of the many verses in the Bible warning against drunkenness, excessive drinking, being led astray, slaves to much wine, (more than 70 times in the Bible) are teaching moderation in use of alcohol.
          If you read the Bible in its entirety you will discover the Word teaches moderation in all aspects of the Christian life…drinking, eating, sleeping, relationships, etc.

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          • Rudy Schellekens says:

            Years ago, someone handed me a book about Social Drink and Biblical Authority. It was a Master’s thesis, written for a class with Thomas Warren, at the Harding Graduate School. It was an interesting read, where the main purpose was to defend the position that alcohol at social occasions was sinful. It was an interesting exercise in logic – but the exegesis was abominable.
            I see a similar issue in this conversation. The exegesis is incorrect.
            To blame it all on translations is incorrect as well.
            As your quoted passages show, moderation is expressed – but overlooked by those who have started their argument from the presupposition drinking anything with an alcoholic content is sin – and now have to find passages to prove such.
            The difference between drinking a glass of wine and getting drunk is not understood. The jump to “excess” is made immediately.
            I assume Bruce lives in Seattle, and I think Scott lives in the South somewhere. His approach I understand – it is a common perception in the Southern congregations of the church of Christ.
            But the argument should not be based on presuppositions. Simple question: What does the Bible have to say about drinking alcoholic beverages?
            The answer is NOT”It is sin, and un-Christlike behavior…”

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          • Gary W. Meier says:

            Rudy said: I see a similar issue in this conversation. The exegesis is incorrect.To blame it all on translations is incorrect as well.
            Gary says: I agree, In most cases translation is not the problem. If, for example, 15 different versions of the Bible representing hundreds of scholars all use the same basic wording, I’m not going to question the experts and say THEY are wrong. Not to mention that one of the principles of understanding the Word is that “Scripture interprets Scripture”. If the context of the passages under discussion are taken into account, there is very little room to blame anything on translations.

            Rudy said: As your quoted passages show, moderation is expressed – but overlooked by those who have started their argument from the presupposition drinking anything with an alcoholic content is sin – and now have to find passages to prove such.
            Gary says: That’s why I have emphasized the word “agenda” in many of my posts. Those with an agenda try, as you state, to find passages to prove their points. This is not only poor scholarship but blinds the writer to the real Truth of the Bible.

            Rudy said: The difference between drinking a glass of wine and getting drunk is not understood. The jump to “excess” is made immediately.
            Gary says: That’s what having an agenda in Scott’s case and being emotionally blinded in Seattlebruce’s case leads to. They find it extremely easy to read into Scripture things that just aren’t there. And it seems in these situations they don’t even know they are doing that.

            Rudy said: But the argument should not be based on presuppositions. Simple question: What does the Bible have to say about drinking alcoholic beverages? The answer is NOT ”It is sin, and un-Christlike behavior…”
            Gary says: Yes, it is simple. It only requires staying on subject and not let outside influences color what’s inside the Bible.

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          • seattlebruce says:

            “Gary says: That’s what having an agenda in Scott’s case and being emotionally blinded in Seattlebruce’s case leads to. They find it extremely easy to read into Scripture things that just aren’t there. And it seems in these situations they don’t even know they are doing that.”

            Do you hear yourself Gary? If you do not deal with Romans 14, if you aren’t even willing to discuss its implications, whO is blinded? Scripture informs and confirms itself, Scripture validates itself. The treatment of drinking alcohol/wine in the Bible amazingly doesn’t end with the simple conclusion that it’s OK for Gary to drink. No, more to it than that. The Word continues in various ways and many places to describe sacrificial love for the weaker brother, sister, child, “making every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.” This goes far beyond some simplistic exegesis of Duet. 14. And it goes way beyond and much deeper than stereotyping, “pegging”, and casting aspersions at people. Get involved with some recovery ministry Gary. Go to some AA and Celebrate Recovery meetings. Look into the eyes of your brothers and sisters there. See and go deeper, and perceive how the Spirit of God informs you from the Word and through prayer about how you should then live. Quit telling me I’m blinded and go out there and open your eyes to your brothers in need.

            Liked by 1 person

    • melanie says:

      Agreed.

      Liked by 1 person

    • melanie says:

      Recently we are hearing more and more about the dangers of even so called moderate drinking and the dangerous health problems it can cause. There are doctors who will recommend total abstinence from alcohol as it is found to cause various forms of cancer and other illness. The world recognizes it as dangerous thing, yet Christians, who are called out of the world, are encouraging it! They are defending something that is so harmful in so many ways. They will never learn and never listen. The Jesus they believe in apparently tells man to do something proven to be very harmful and a cause of many of society’s ills. Not the Jesus I believe in.

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      • Rudy Schellekens says:

        Modern science is contradictory, Melanie. Apart from that, there are clear passages where the use of alcoholic drinks are prescribed and what do you want to do with those? Tear them out of the Bible because they do not match your point of view?
        The Nazorite vow has a clear abstinence of wine. That means that for those who did not take that vow, wine was permitted – always remembering the “do not get drunk…” command.
        Again, it might not fit with your point of view, but it is Biblical.

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        • Melanie is right about this point. More doctors teach abstinence because the negative consequences outweigh the positive for evening starting to drink. On another source, I remember citing Mayo Clinic who recommend that drinkers moderately drink as one drink a day and only three days a week. Mayo Clinic surprised me by recommending that those who have not started drinking never start. Seeing the increase of stomach, mouth, and throat cancers among repentant believers who once drank “moderately” is heart breaking.

          What really upsets me about modern wine is that people perceive that wine is less alcoholic, less harmful, and even beneficial to one’s health. However, two glasses of wine now exceeds the alcohol of four shots or four beers. The consumption of wine is greatly increasing. Servers over pour glasses of wine so that consumption is a more than drink and often two in one.

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          • Rudy Schellekens says:

            the rest (or, at least more) of the story – From the Mayo Clinic website…
            “Red wine seems to have even more heart-healthy benefits than do other types of alcohol, but it’s possible that red wine isn’t any better than beer, white wine or liquor for heart health. There’s still no clear evidence that red wine is better than other forms of alcohol when it comes to possible heart-healthy benefits.”

            And yes, in the same article, “While the news about red wine might sound great if you enjoy a glass of red wine with your evening meal, doctors are wary of encouraging anyone to start drinking alcohol. That’s because too much alcohol can have many harmful effects on your body.”

            And see the final statement, ” too much alcohol can have many harmful effects on your body.” Note the “too much” alcohol…

            Food is good for you – but too much is not…
            Exercise is food for you – but not too much…
            Work is good for you – but not too much

            I think I remember reading something that Paul wrote…

            Liked by 1 person

          • Agreed. However, the ambiguity has been devastating for many. I must warn others not to look or linger over wine.

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    • melanie says:

      The word translated sober in 1 Peter 5:8 literally means to abstain from wine. We are actually commanded to abstain. Not sure if you mentioned that in your article or not; I thought it was an interesting fact.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Rudy Schellekens says:

        Wrong.

        nēphō
        Thayer Definition:
        1) to be sober, to be calm and collected in spirit
        2) to be temperate, dispassionate, circumspect

        It is an ATTITUDE setting, and not related to the use of alcohol, Where did you get your definition from??

        Liked by 1 person

        • My Thayer’s lexicon does say “abstain from wine.” However, I do not think that Thayer’s is a very good lexicon, because it is dated via lack of Greek material for word-studies. Danker and Gingrich’s lexicon (BDAG) has been a very reliable source for my graduate specialization in Kione Greek. BDAG defines neipho as “sober, well-balanced, self-controlled” (132).

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          • Rudy Schellekens says:

            As, in many, many more words does TDNT…

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          • Rudy, I do not understand your comment about the Theological Dictionary.

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          • Rudy Schellekens says:

            TDNT writes a much longer article, which eventually reaches the same conclusion.

            Melanie has not responded to my request for her thoughts on the elder-passages, on the 1 cor passage, her source for the meaning of the word “sober” to mean abstaining from wine etc.
            nor were she found the meaning of the word “sober” in 1 Peter… Now would be an awesome time to do that, Melanie…

            Liked by 1 person

          • What does TDNT say about methuo? I do not have ready access to the source.

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          • Rudy Schellekens says:

            i will check that when I get back to my own office.. Sometime tonight, after the local caucus is over. best i can do right now, from memory – being filled with… filled to overflowing…

            Liked by 1 person

          • BDAG is clear that methuo means drunkenness. However, the LXX uses the word for the state of becoming filled.

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          • Being filled with wine is methuo but being filled with the Spirit is plerao (Eph 5:18).

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          • Rudy Schellekens says:

            I’m sorry, I forgot all about checking that! So, I checked. The interesting thing is that the same term is used in John 2 – “have well drunk” or, are drunk… So the good wine is what leads to that situation… And Jesus made wine like the good stuff…

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  2. James Barron says:

    Scott you blocked my comment but God spoke through Rudy anyway. Why do you dishonestly block my comments? Because you want to push your agenda. But it didn’t work Scott because Rudy said to all exactly what should have been said.

    You are obsessed with things of minor consequence. It would be refreshing to hear you expound on the mystery of our own death and resurrection in Jesus and how His work translated us from this realm of darkness to His realm of light, no longer under law and living now by His life! That would be something worth talking about.

    But you love to argue about the alcohol content of the wine in Jesus’ day. Very sad. Will you print my comment? Probably not.

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    • Wrong, James. WordPress automatically blocked your comment because it contained a link. Furthermore, I do not permit link dropping to maintain the integrity of current links. You can post your site or source without a link.

      The majority of my posts and current grad work is focused on the resurrection and soteriology. The article above is a result of repeated requests for me to speak about Jesus’s use of wine.

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    • Gary W. Meier says:

      James, welcome back to the conversation. I just got in. My take so far is that there are way too many personal opinions floating around without the corresponding Scriptural references.

      Liked by 1 person

      • James Barron says:

        Thanks Gary. I have enjoyed your comments as well. This whole discussion about how much alcohol was in the wine that Jesus made or in the wine they drank in the first century is such a waste of time and energy.

        Rudy made it so clear that the issue is what does the scripture teach? Rudy is correct in everything he said. These guys like Seattlebruce and Scott have an agenda because they are concerned about people abusing alcohol but that is not what this discussion is about. Seattlebruce is not being true to the scriptures. He is trying to impose his beliefs on us who are reading the scriptures plainly and accurately and he is pretty arrogant in the way he talks about helping those who may stumble over alcohol. Makes me wonder about Seattlebruce because his tone is so condescending. Wisdom from above is full of mercy and peace and not combative. Seattlebruce fails that test for sure.

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        • Gary W. Meier says:

          Hi James. In agreement the conversation about how much wine Jesus drank is unimportant. What difference does it make? Absolutely none. Also in agreement with your comments about SeattleBruce. I believe you pegged him correctly. Finally, about Rudy. You are correct. The only issue is what Holy Scripture teaches. Scott is letting his agenda influence his writing and Seattlebruce is allowing his emotions to control his understanding. The result for both of them is they are completely missing the Truth as taught by the Bible.

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          • seattlebruce says:

            Now you’re “pegging” people Rudy? Nice work. You don’t comprehend, do you?

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          • Rudy Schellekens says:

            pegging people???

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          • Gary W. Meier says:

            Don’t be confused Rudy. He has trouble distinguishing between Rudy and Gary, just as he has trouble distinguishing between drinking and drunkenness.

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          • seattlebruce says:

            Gary, made a simple mistake. That whole mockery thing working out well for ya? You’re so persuasive!

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          • seattlebruce says:

            “just as he has trouble distinguishing between drinking and drunkenness.”

            Let me cut to the chase for ya Gary. When you work with people in recovery you’ll find out real quickly the difference between your esoteric take on this and what needs to practically happen to support and love these folks. Yeah, and guess what, it doesn’t include sittin’ down and chewing the fat with them over a beer to prove how moderate a drinker you are. It does include not drinking in front of them and taking that charge very seriously. Are you willing to do that, and comprehend how that fits into a life yielded to the Spirit of God? I notice you never answer my question about whether you minister to anyone in recovery. Because when you do, your views become very practical very quickly, and you don’t have the luxury of ignoring Romans 14:22, et al., or say mocking brothers in Christ that bring out these points. Now we haven’t even gotten to the dilemma of problem drinkers or children and not stumbling them…

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          • seattlebruce says:

            Sorry Rudy, should have addressed that to Gary who literally used the phrase, “I think you’ve pegged seattlebruce…”

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        • seattlebruce says:

          Interesting James, you get to judge me while calling me judgmental. BTW, can you point out how my concern for the mass of humanity that suffers from addictions is untrue to Scripture?

          Liked by 1 person

        • seattlebruce says:

          “and he is pretty arrogant in the way he talks about helping those who may stumble over alcohol. Makes me wonder about Seattlebruce because his tone is so condescending. Wisdom from above is full of mercy and peace and not combative. Seattlebruce fails that test for sure.”

          James, what amazes me is that you skip over the combativeness with those you agree with, and your own combativeness and zero in on my combativeness. LOL. Yeah, I wonder about you too. I’m no perfect one, to be sure – Jesus will humble me under His mighty hand. As He will you and all of us. Have I erred on the side of addicts? Perhaps, but you’ve erred on the side of disregard. I’d love for you to mount a vigorous defense of your concern for addicts…humble me and prove me wrong.

          Liked by 1 person

    • seattlebruce says:

      “But you love to argue about the alcohol content of the wine in Jesus’ day. Very sad. Will you print my comment? Probably not.”

      James, for someone who likes to opine about condescension, you sure have the hair trigger judgments going on. Look how quickly you jumped to incorrect conclusions about Scott. So you’re trying to “win” us over? LOL.

      Liked by 1 person

  3. Kara says:

    Do not be filled with wine WHEREIN IS EXCESS. But be filled with the Spirit. Doesn’t this article warns us to be careful in how we perceive the usage of the word “wine” in the bible, for it in biblical times was unfermented grape juice. The bible tells us that the scripture is of no private interpretion. To choose out scripture where we twist it to fit out own carnal desires is missing the whole point. I am a delivered born-again Christian, free from drugs and alcohol. Experiencing spirit baptism with evidence of speaking in tongues is this “New wine” His spirit filling me bubbling up to everlasting life. The bible speak of the Spirit leading and guiding into ALL truth, and on the subjuct of wine no where is even moderation of alcoholic beverages admonished, but rather the exact opposite. The wine (alcoholic) in itself it filled with excess, and you to know that if you’ve considered it only dabbling or a social drink. God calls us to be separarte and live a holy life, if you are truly hunger to please the Lord Jesus Christ he will reveal to you, and lead you instead of your only fleshly desires!

    Like

    • Gary W. Meier says:

      Kara, hope you enjoyed your celebration of Christmas and I wish for you the most blessed year of 2016.

      Kara, as you’ve seen by reading all the previous posts, this topic of drinking wine and strong drink has been covered adnauseam. I’m sure, Kara, that you are a sincere Christian but based on your comments it’s evident that you are misguided in your understanding of Holy Scripture. Ignorance is not becoming to Christians and makes the rest of us look bad.

      For instance, consider your statement that “in Biblical times wine was unfermented grape juice”. That is complete nonsense. The Bible is replete with descriptions of and warnings against drunkenness from wine. They didn’t get drunk on unfermented grape juice. The wine in the Bible was always alcoholic and contained enough alcohol to get people seriously drunk.

      Concerning drinking in moderation. You say this isn’t found anywhere in the Bible. To the contrary, the teaching of drinking in moderation is found throughout the pages of Holy Scripture. Here are a few instances. 1 Tim. 3:8 – “deacons must not be heavy drinkers” means they should drink in moderation, don’t overdrink. 1 Tim. 5:23 – “No longer drink only water, but use a little wine” also teaches drinking in moderation. Check out all the warnings against drunkenness in both the Old Testament and New Testament Kara. For instance, Ephesians 5:18 says “do not get drunk with wine”. It doesn’t say don’t drink wine. Those warnings are teaching us that if we drink, we must do so in moderation. The dictionary informs us that moderation means “avoiding extremes of behavior, observing reasonable limits”. If you read the Bible carefully and with an open mind, you will never find an instant where drinking for Christian (or anyone else, for that matter) is prohibited.

      Kara, I Implore you to begin a thorough study of Holy Scripture so you will discover the Truth as taught by God. The Truth will not be revealed to you if you read the Bible from an emotional standpoint, changing it’s true meaning to conform to what you believe the Bible should say and teach. In pursuing the Truth, Christians need to cleanse their minds of all the clutter of false teachings and misconceptions about Christianity into which they have been led and begin anew. These cleansed minds will then become a sponge that will enthusiastically soak up the true teachings of the Bible. Romans 12:2 tells us not to be conformed to this world. God makes it clear that we are to be transformed by the renewal of our minds. Get the garbage out of our heads and let the resulting vacuum be filled with God’s Truth. Only when this happens will Christians “discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect“.

      If you are capable of doing that, you will be surprised what the Bible actually teaches about wine and strong drink. You will find drinking alcoholic beverages is interwoven throughout Scripture as being an important positive element in the lives, relationships, discussions and culture of Gods people, especially Christians. Wine and strong drink are considered to be a blessing from God, a special gift to his people, extremely good, those who drink it will thrive and flourish and it brings joy to the heart (I can furnish Scripture references for all these statements).

      Kara, there is so much disunity and discord in God’s Church today that we don’t need to contribute to this sorry state by our ignorance. Hosea 4:6 says: “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge”. That’s what has happened in Christ’s Church today, Christians are destroying it because they reject Biblical knowledge and pontificate on what they want the Bible to say. You have contributed to the discombobulation of God’s Church by your totally unscriptural statements about wine being unfermented grape juice and claiming that the Bible teaches Christians it is a sin to drink alcoholic beverages.

      Please, Kara, begin today to study the Bible earnestly, each time before opening its pages asking Holy Spirit to reveal the Truth to you. This is imperative of every Christian to insure the Christian Church will not be reduced to irrelevancy.

      Like

  4. Jeanne Miller says:

    Noah planted a vineyard and. Got drunk.

    Liked by 1 person

    • seattlebruce says:

      Jeanne – and in so doing Noah was sinful. Since modern wine has more alcohol than Bible wine, the Biblical warnings are even more pertinent. Romans 14, and 15:1, et al, also surely apply. Whatever Jesus drank or made, He did not sin.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Gary W. Meier says:

      That’s for sure Jeanne, he got roaring drunk. And that’s precisely what the Bible warns against…the abuse of alcohol. It’s interesting that the word used for wine concerning Noah’s drunkenness is the same word used for the wine Jesus made at the wedding feast. Both strongly alcoholic.

      Liked by 1 person

  5. seattlebruce says:

    Gary said: “As is always the case, the Bible has again been proven correct. More than 60 scientific studies have established the importance of drinking alcoholic beverages to maintain good health and to prolong a persons life.”

    Tanins in grapes have been proven to reduce incidence of heart disease. But you don’t need to drink wine to get the benefits of tanins.

    I believe the study you cite from Harvard 2007 is:http://archive.sph.harvard.edu/press-releases/2007-releases/press01012007.html
    And what’s interesting about that is that moderate drinking in hypertensive men could decrease risk of high blood pressure related illness and death. Could. And correlation is not causation. What about decreasing your tension in other ways, through good exercise, diet, prayer and meditation?

    The same study cites the danger of drinking more than 1-2 drinks per day.

    Alcohol is no panacea, for sure. Over drinking is real and nasty. The church needs to support and provide a healing balm for those in alcohol addiction recovery. Period. It’s Biblical to do so. [Romans 14, and 15:1, er al.]

    Liked by 1 person

    • Rudy schellekens says:

      Vinyl is the best way to play music – still. But records can and do break.
      With all due respect, Bruce, you are beginning to sound like one.
      No one denies the fact that abusing alcohol is wrong.
      The point is that one cannot use the biblical text in the way it is used by contributors like Melanie.
      No only is it bad exegesis, bad hermeneutics, bad etymology, it’s also making a book of logic sound illogical.

      Like

      • seattlebruce says:

        Ah, I see Rudy. If I say something you don’t agree with, you will, like a broken record (ironic hmm?) accuse me of poor Biblical scholarship, exegesis, hermaneutics, and so forth.

        But you refuse to see it don’t you? How poor your application of Scripture is. For you this discussion is about some sort of elegance that you claim I don’t have toward the Biblical position on drinking alcohol. Ah, I’ve never said flatly that Christians can’t drink. But in fact if you open your mind and heart Rudy, you’ll see that the Biblical application here – the correct exegesis – is not a self cenfered one, but one that saves us from our sin and self centeredness, and brings us – by Jesus divine power – toward sacrificial love of God and others. Jesus own attitude and approach to alcohol, the Father’s approach, the Apostle Paul’s approach, was one of caution and concern for others. Jesus was sinless in his approach to alcohol. He would not have caused others to sin, as He was/is sinless. His concern for others extended so far beyond whether 85% of them could drink, toward understanding and compassion for those 15% that could not handle drink. His approach was perfect and sinless, and if we’re to exegete Scripture well, we need to imitate Jesus’ other centered approach. Jesus would not have us forget the 15% of the crowds that tended toward addiction. He would not act nor teach as if they didn’t exist. No, Jesus would say if anything made you sin to ROOT it out, and He conducted His life that way, and we’re to conduct our lives that way!

        So am I as poor at exegesis as you say? Or are you missing the primary theme of the Bible, in your headlong attempt to imagine that those 15% of human beings don’t apply in this discussion?

        I think that Jesus obvious and primary concern for the sinner, for example, for the addict, and in dealing with that sin completely, is THE central theme of all of Scripture.

        And Romans 14, 15:1, and all other Scripture pertinent to this topic are relevant, as all Scripture is profitable for teaching, reproof, and training in righteousness.

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        • Rudy schellekens says:

          Once again. No one is advocating to go out, get riproaring drunk.
          But Romans 14 has nothing to do with what the Bible says about the use of alcohol. It has nothing to do with the definition of the words used in the bible re wine/grape juice.
          It does not speak to MEANINGS and DEFINITIONS.
          Instead of wine, imagine the word BAPTISM.
          Would Melanie argue that SPRINKLING is the definition, and the only definition, and that those who advocate for immersion are fake Christians. She would refer to articles read, personal definitions – we would have the same situation.
          Would you quote Romans 14? After all, the weaker member must be considered here…
          And Bruce, there is an even more important aspect to THAT discussion!
          If someone is careless in dealing with one Biblical concept, there us carelessness in others.
          So, all of us agree with how behavior is to be modeled. That is not the issue

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