Is this true that Jesus drank alcoholic wine as the lyrics, “Cause I heard Jesus, He drank wine”? Some question this. What kind of wine did Jesus drink? Did Jesus drink intoxicating amounts of wine?
The Definition of Biblical Wine
The word “wine” in the Bible is not always alcoholic or equivalent to modern wine. The Bible uses one Greek word for “wine” and “grape juice” which could mean alcoholic wine of varying amounts or non-alcoholic grape juice (1 Tim 3:8; Titus 2:3). The Hebrew word for “wine” is yayin and the Greek is oinos (MT; LXX). Biblical “wine” is grape juice that may or may not have fermented. However, the wine of today has considerably more alcohol than wine in the first century because of modified yeast. The Bible includes a number of examples of unfermented “wine”:
- “Wine” is the blood of the grape (Gen 49:11–12, Heb. yayin, Gr. oinos LXX; Deut 32:14, Heb. chemer; Gr. oinos LXX).
- The vineyard is the place of “red wine” (Isa 27:2, Heb. chemer).
- “Wine” refers to the grape juice from the grapes of the field (Deut 11:14; 2 Chr 31:5, Heb. tirosh; Gr. oinos LXX; Jer 40:10, 12, Heb. yayin; Gr. oinos LXX).
- Scripture describes “wine” that is in the grape (Isa 65:8, Heb. tirosh).
- The grape juice of the wine-press is “wine” (Prov 3:10, Heb. tirosh; Gr. oinos LXX; Isa 16:10; Jer 48:33, Heb. yayin; Gr. oinos LXX).
These references reveal that the word “wine” in Hebrew and Greek often refers to non-alcoholic grape juice in the Bible. Linguistics requires that one begin with the generic meaning and then determine other specific meanings of a word by its context and, or use.
In reading the Old Testament, Bible translations represent six different Hebrew words “wine” for which one word excludes alcohol. This word is asis meaning “sweet grape juice” or “new grape juice.” The word has no reference to alcohol, yet translators have interpreted it as “wine” to avoid interpreting the contexts with nuances and ambiguity. Therefore, the word “wine” does not necessarily mean alcoholic wine in the Bible.
The Bible does not appear to contain one positive statement about intoxicating wine or any such drink. The Bible does include positive words about generic “wine” that is grape juice (Gen 14:18; Num 15:5–10; Deut 14:26; Ps 104:15; Isa 55:1; Amos 9:14; John 2:1–11; 1 Tim 5:23). References to “strong drink” or “liquor” in the Bible refer to cider in biblical translations of sikera, σικερα, according to Danker and Gingrich’s Greek lexicon (cf. Deut 14:26; Luke 1:15; Wycliffe’s Bible).
Ancient Wine and Today’s Wine
In the Bible, alcoholic wine is not like wine today. The sugar of grape juice can only ferment to 3 or 4% alcohol with wild yeast — airborne yeast. For grape juice to exceed 4% alcohol, then the winemaker must add yeast. The yeast added to ancient wines produced between 4–11% alcohol. Alcohol kills these yeast cells and prevents levels of alcohol from exceeding ~10%. Today, wines average 12–20% alcohol due to modern fermentation by adding sulfur dioxide and Saccharomyces (a cultured GMO yeast) to a late harvest of ripened grapes with higher fructose (Winemaker Magazine, Wines & Vines, UC Davis, International Biblical Encyclopedia, “Alcohol in the Church,” Bible Wine). Today’s wine is not like biblical wine in regards to alcoholic content. Due to the later invention of distilling, strong drinks like liquor exceed 20% alcohol for which today’s wine is coming close to matching.
When reading the word “wine” in the Bible, the word may simply refer to grape juice or intoxicating wine not exceeding ~10% alcohol. The reader must interpret the word “wine” within its context to determine if it is alcoholic. However, biblical wine is certainly not like wine today.
Because of the use of the word “wine” in English Bibles, many presume that Jesus drank alcoholic wine. Jesus did not drink modern wine. The methods for fermenting highly-alcoholic wine had not yet been invented. Jesus’s opponents did accuse Him of being a “wine-drinker” from the Greek oinopoteis, because He came freely eating and also drinking grape juice unlike John the Baptist who restricted his eating and drinking (Matt 11:18–19; Luke 7:33–34). These antagonists appear to accuse Jesus of drinking alcoholic wine. However, when the reader considers the wedding that Jesus attended in Cana and Jesus’s institution of the Lord’s Supper, then His drinking of wine is not what many have presumed.
Water to Wine
What about Jesus turning water into wine? Upon reading John 2:1–11 in most English translations, many took the text as stating that Jesus turned water into intoxicating wine at the wedding in Cana, a small town in Galilee (John 2). These scriptures infer that the wedding guests “have well drunk” a large amount of oinos wine. The Greek word translated as “well drunk” is methuo meaning literally to fill or make full, and many times the word means “drunk” depending on the context. Translators correctly render methuo as “drunk” in contexts referring to drunkenness by drinking intoxicating wine or filling oneself with wine (Gingrich and Danker’s lexicon). John’s reference to the guests having “drunk well” and becoming full also implies that the wedding feast was relatively short especially if one takes this word in John 2:10 to mean that the guests were “drunk.”
In this case, Jesus either made more alcoholic wine for those who were drunk or He made more grape juice for those who would have their fill. Which is plausible: that Jesus created intoxicating wine for those who were drunk or that He made fresh “new wine,” grape juice, for those who had drunk well of the previous supply? If one interprets this passage as Jesus making alcoholic wine, then Jesus created more intoxicating wine for those who were already drunk or filled. If one perceives that the wedding guests were simply full of non-alcoholic wine, then Jesus made “new wine” with minimal to no alcohol.
Furthermore, “good wine” was limited late in winter and just before Passover when the wine had aged throughout the year (John 2:13). Jesus providing more aged and intoxicating wine would not have been an apparent miraculous sign. Jesus provided them with “good wine.” Was it “good wine” as though received from the grape press? The making of new wine would magnify Jesus’s sign because this was just before the Passover and before the first harvest of grapes. Therefore, Jesus’s production of fresh grape juice would have been an evident miraculous wonder of God.
The master of the feast depicted the situation that which the guests had filled themselves with wine from the meaning of “filled” of the Greek word methuo in John 2:9–10. A wedding feast may last a day and sometimes more (Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah). John depicted that many would have drunk well of the wine so the guests were full as implied by the Greek word methuo. Being filled with wine tells that this drinking of the wedding feast occurred in a short amount of time within a few hours. The guests would immediately drink the wine that Jesus made. If Jesus made alcoholic wine, Jesus would have made more intoxicating wine amounting to between 120 to 180 gallons of additional alcoholic wine. What would happen if three hundred guests “have well drunk” and then drank an additional 150 gallons of alcoholic wine? Jesus would have given each guest an additional 64 ounces of alcoholic wine. The average person would have drunk another 6–12 drinks of alcoholic wine if there were 300 guests. However, the abundance was part of the miracle like the 12 baskets of bread left over from feeding the 5,000. Maybe the wine was not meant to be consumed immediately.
Even considering a wedding party of a thousand guests who have well drunk, each person would have consumed about 19 ounces of wine. Presuming that this wine contained 10% alcohol because the scenario includes fermented wine and the guests drank it all in one day, Jesus would have aided a thousand people in binge drinking having intoxicated the guests with three additional drinks who were already intoxicated as indicated by the Greek methuo for having “well drunk.” For each guest to have had simply two more drinks, then the wedding would have had at least 1,600 attendees. Despite the number in attendance, Jesus would have presumably contributed a considerable amount of alcohol to those who were already filled with wine. For those proposing that Jesus made highly intoxicating wine like today’s wine, 16–24 ounces would intoxicate anyone at an alcoholic level of 12–15% according to the CDC. Either today’s intoxicating wine or first-century fermented wine appears to be an absurdity at this wedding.
To assume that Jesus made alcoholic wine is to assume that after everyone had drunk all the other wine, then Jesus made more intoxicating wine for all of those who had their fill. The scenario of Jesus producing alcoholic wine appears implausible and uncharacteristic of biblical commands to refrain from drunkenness. If Jesus did make a great amount of fermented wine, He would have aided the sin of drunkenness and excessive drinking and would have participated in a drinking party, which are all condemned by His disciple and apostle Peter in the Scriptures (1 Pet 4:3).
Wine and the Lord’s Supper
Did Jesus use alcoholic wine in the Lord’s Supper? What kind of wine would someone drink at a feast where yeast was thrown out? Many have assumed that Jesus drank wine because many churches have made alcoholic wine a part of the “Eucharist,” the Lord’s Supper. Did Jesus use highly alcoholic wine when He instituted the Lord’s Supper? First, the Scriptures never use the word “wine” in any of the four accounts of Jesus instituting the Lord’s Supper. Jesus mentioned the specific content of the cup containing “the fruit of the grapevine.” The passages about the Lord’s Supper make no reference to alcoholic wine. The Greek word for “wine” is never used in Scripture to describe any part of the Lord’s Supper.
Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper during the Passover Feast. What kind of wine did the Jews use during Passover? Jesus used unleavened bread in the Passover because this is also the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Israel threw out all leaven by God’s command including the leavened bread (Exod 13:6–7). The throwing out of the yeast implies that Israel removed the grape juice fermented by the leavening of yeast. Fermented wine was not likely a part of the Passover taught by Moses. Furthermore, Jesus referred to the contents of the cup as “fruit of the grapevine” in the Lord’s Supper indicating minimal to no fermentation even from wild yeast. The intent of the cup of the Lord was not to intoxicate.
What about those who got drunk by drinking the Lord’s Supper? Getting drunk by bringing intoxicating wine to the Lord’s Supper does not mean that Jesus gave the disciples alcoholic wine in the Lord’s Supper. First Corinthians 11:21–22 depicts, “Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk [methuo]” (ESV). This passage also uses the Greek word methuo, which can mean drunk or filled (cf. John 2:10). Some ate the Lord’s Supper as a meal so that they were filled and those who drank were also filled not necessarily drunk. However, Paul could have been correcting such intoxication as well. If one assumes that these Christians became drunk in the assembly using the grape juice for the Lord’s Supper, then they must also presume that those drinking brought enough intoxicating wine to get drunk and intended to use such for the Lord’s Supper. The use of alcoholic wine implies that some of these Christians brought intoxicating wine for the church to drink together for the Lord’s Supper. They would also have decided to drink and get drunk from that wine in assembly rather than wait for others. Whether the wine was alcoholic or not, 1 Corinthians 11 neither condones alcoholic wine for the Lord’s Supper nor suggests that Jesus used alcoholic wine for His disciples to commune with Christ in remembrance of His sacrificial blood.
Warnings about Wine
Jesus warned against drunkenness and filling oneself with intoxicating drinks that trap people in this life (Luke 21:34). The Bible warns those who do drink, linger, and look at the cup (Prov 23:29–35; Rom 14:17–22). Christians can and should warn others about alcohol.
The apostle Paul revealed that those who continue in drunkenness will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9–11; Gal 5:19–21). The Greek word translated “drunkenness” literally means “filling oneself” in Scripture (Eph 5:18–19; cf. Rom 13:13). Christ’s Spirit in Galatians 5:19–21 teaches that such “drunkenness” is a “work of the flesh” and “those who are doing such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5 also condemned “wild parties” or “revelries” where any of the lists of sins like drunkenness would constitute a party as sinful and carnal. Paul also revealed in 1 Corinthians 6:10 that drunkards “will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Drunkenness and filling one’s body with intoxicants is a sin.
Filling oneself with alcohol is evil and compromises the sobriety of the Christian conscience and one’s heart (cf. Rom 2:14–15; 1 John 3:19–21). Christ’s words and those of His apostles and prophets urge all to avoid drunkenness, and so Christians should do likewise and warn others of drunkenness. Peter warned, “For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Nations want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness [lit. excessive drinking], orgies, drinking parties [lit. drinkings], and lawless idolatry” (1 Pet 4:3). The word for “drunkenness” in 1 Peter 4:3 is not the usual word for drunkenness, but the Greek word is oinophlugia made of two words oinos meaning “wine” and phlugia is “to do something in excess.” Excessive drinking is a sin. Furthermore, “drinking parties” is translated from the Greek word potos, which literally denotes occasions that people gather for the purpose of drinking.
The apostle Paul commanded Christians to remain sober and make no provision to become drunk on any level (1 Thess 5:8). Christ had no part with drunkenness and drinking parties, so His followers must not. According to Romans 14, Christians should not condemn their brother over a drink; although, every Christian has the scriptural example and the foresight to warn against its use and against looking at the cup (Prov 23:29–35; Rom 14:17–22). Solomon warned by the wisdom of God.
Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it swirls around smoothly; At the last it bites like a serpent, And stings like a viper. Your eyes will see strange things, And your heart will utter perverse things. (Prov 23:31–33)
Therefore, “Wine is a mocker, Strong drink is a brawler, And whoever is led astray by it is not wise” (Prov 20:1). The assertions of positive statements about drinking alcohol in the Bible are private interpretations.
Conclusion
The wine that Jesus drank was not intoxicating. Alcoholic wine is not characteristic of Jesus or any godly behavior in the Bible. Jesus neither encouraged drunkenness nor drank intoxicating wine. No one can rightly reference Jesus to justify excessive drinking, drunkenness, and drinking events. The Bible neither promotes nor supports the drinking of intoxicants. God’s grace compels Christians no longer to continue in any excessive drinking of alcohol because they have been forgiven.
Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. (Rom 13:13–14)
Bibliography
- Jeff Chorniak. “Wild Yeast: The Pros and Cons of Spontaneous Fermentation.” Winemakers Magazine. 2005. <http://winemakermag.com/758-wild-yeast-the-pros-and-cons-of-spontaneous-fermentation>.
- Jean L. Jacobson. “Upsides of Wild Fermentation.” Wine & Vines, 2012. <http://www.winesandvines.com/template.cfm?section=features&content=98687>.
- “Marking Red Table Wine.” University of California Davis, 2016. <http://wineserver.ucdavis.edu/pdf/HWM3.pdf>.
- James Orr, M.A., D.D. “Wine; Wine Press.” International Bible Encyclopedia, 1915. <http://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/isb/view.cgi?n=9116>.
- “Alcohol in the Church.” 2016. <http://www.abidingplace.org/features/alcohol-in-the-church.html>.
- Kyle Pope. “Bible Wine.” Olsen Park church of Christ, 2013. <http://www.olsenpark.com/Sermons13/BibleWine.html>.
- Alfred Edersheim. The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah. Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1883. <https://www.ccel.org/ccel/edersheim/lifetimes>.
Related posts:
“Reconsider the Biblical Concept of Drunkenness“
The Breath of God 
Some really sour people on here adamant that it’s okay for them to drink alcohol. Truth be told, no drunkard shall enter the kingdom of heaven. I am impressed that the author has remained calm and rational in the face of some of the comments. Just reading the replies was annoying to me. The bible is clear that drunkeness is a sin, if you want to justify your sin by telling yourself that “Jesus made wine so it’s cool y’all ” go right ahead but as the bible says, no drunkard shall enter the kingdom of heaven.
“Self-control” is a fruit of the spirit, not “abstinence.” No Christian can contend for drunkenness from the bible. IS someone who eats a bite of food a glutton? Then why is someone who says a drink of wine is ok a drunk? It is possible to have a drink without being drunk or a drunkard. Your argument is just a strawman. Of course drunkenness is wrong.
Nurick, you have not distinguished between drunkenness and and a drink. Like Scott you are biased toward abstinence. Romans 14 makes it clear that some can indulge in things that others cannot. Maybe you and Scott should abstain from anything that has the possibility of becoming uncontrolled. Those of us who use “discernment” properly can go ahead and engage in certain things without the fear of losing our salvation. Our goal is “not” to avoid hell as yours seems to be. The “fear of hell” is not a healthy way to practice Christianity. A divided mind is unstable, as the Bible clearly states.
Did your spirit tell you that Romans 14.21 refers to alcoholic oinos?
Do you understand that “principles” are being taught in Romans 14? Maybe you missed this.
Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
So we can drink toxins like ethyl alcohol? – or take opiates or canibus? Can we eat blood? These hurt the Temple (1 Cor. 6.19-20).
What is clean are the edible foods once considered unclean in the Law – unless something is unclean to us.
Again, there is no positive reference to alcohol in the Bible.
Scott, there are many positive references to wine in the bible. You only deny this by trying to prove it is only grape juice they are speaking about. But the evidence and language does not support that claim. I suggest that it is your tradition and experience that prevents you from seeing the truth. If there were NO drinking permitted, the bible would not speak so much about avoiding drunkeness, it would just say avoid wine, alcohol, etc. And as I noted before, if you have a stomach ailment you would not suggest someone to take grape juice (which is healthy but not medicinal), you would however, suggest wine, which was common in the ancient world.
https://bible.org/article/bible-and-alcohol
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/14/really-red-wine-is-good-for-the-stomach/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
Hi everyone in the World, please pray the Chaplet below every day to mitigate justice. I’m going to pray this every day along with my other prayers. Mournful Heart of JESUS, have mercy on me and the whole world. Please forgive us, merciful, loving JESUS. Amen. Please read all latest messages from heaven at http://www.holylove.org. (With God all things are possible)!!
Thanks,
Anita
CHAPLET TO THE MOURNFUL HEART OF JESUS
“Dear children, it is the sins which wound My Son’s Heart – the compromise of Truth and the abuse of authority – which rapidly widen the abyss between Heaven and earth. Please pray on any rosary beads: One Our Father and three Hail Mary’s for the following intentions:”
1. “That mankind discovers the Truth of the difference between good and evil.”
Our Father… Hail Mary… Hail Mary… Hail Mary…
2. “That the Truths of the Faith which are dogma are not compromised to please mankind, but upheld.”
Our Father… Hail Mary… Hail Mary… Hail Mary…
3. “That all leaders, secular and religious, recognize sin as sin, and in no way lend support by way of pandering to or accommodating ‘special interest’ groups.”
Our Father… Hail Mary… Hail Mary… Hail Mary…
4. “That no leadership takes away religious freedom.”
Our Father… Hail Mary… Hail Mary… Hail Mary…
5. “That all leaders, religious and secular, lead as good shepherds towards the welfare of their flock – not with an eye towards any self-gain, power or disordered authority.”
Our Father… Hail Mary… Hail Mary… Hail Mary…
“Then pray:”
“Dear Jesus, please accept these prayers in atonement for the grievances of Your Most Mournful Heart. Through this Chaplet, please mitigate Your Justice. Amen.”
(Our Lady – February 3, 2014)
Scott,
I was intrigued by the math relating to the wedding feast at Cana. I haven’t followed up on the specifics, but I did have one question.
Can we assume that the wedding feast was a one-day event like modern weddings in America?
I have no agenda, but merely wish to put all the information in proper perspective.
Yes. The bridegroom comes in procession to take his bride to the home that he prepared for them (Matt. 22:1-14, 25:1-12, Luke 14:8-11). His family host’s the wedding feast that evening when the marriage covenant is made and the marriage is consummated.
I agree Phil. There’s no way the wine was 2 or 3 percent, it was the same then as now or better. Depending on the grape and the sugar content when ripened, the grapes could have made wine from 12 to over 15 percent alcohol content, also, grapes have a natural yeast already on them. I would have loved to try the wine Jesus made, it would have been the best. I enjoy a glass of wine before dinner, it enhances a meal, it relaxes you (I don’t drink to relax, but it does relax a person) I enjoy the taste of certain wines, it does help when you have a certain stomache problem and I don’t abuse it, I just enjoy it the way it was intended to be enjoyed. No one can blame alcohol for getting drunk or having problems, everyone is responsible for their own actions, we make the choice, just like We can’t blame food if we are a glutton, or a woman if a man looks at her with lust. I don’t know where this idea came from that wine back then or in Noah’s day wasn’t very strong or not as strong as today’s, that’s ridiculous it was probably better. Noah knew a lot about making wine and probably made some good wines. He had his own vineyard, his wine like you say made him drunk, or his over indulgence did, it certainly wasn’t 2 or3 percent. Strong or good wine comes from good ripe high sugar content fermented grapes or grape juice and grapes were not any different back then as they are now, and those who made wine like Noah would have made sure he made wine from the best grapes.
Reblogged this on Seeing God's Breath.
I think it’s fine not to use alcoholic wine. But to bind that on others should be avoided. The same with Instrumental Music.
Well said Phil. Well said.
“Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it”, (Gal. 3:15).
1 Timothy 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.
True. While I would tend to consider this alcoholic, yet we can’t prove that this use of oinos is alcoholic.
except that ordinary grape juice has no known medicinal effects for a bad stomach, while many ancient documents do allude to this practice with reference to alcoholic wine. so much for your claim of no proof.
I have read otherwise.
I am not trying to be rude, but it is becoming apparent that you don’t know what your talking about. It seems you are clinging to your church tradition rather than honestly looking at the sources. Here’s another article for you to consider, in light of some of your recent claims. As I stated, wine was seen as a blessing in the OT, and had medicinal value. Of course juice is healthy, but was not used as medicine. IF you can contradict this, please provide a source.
In the mean time, please consider reading this, which further corroborates my points.
http://www.gci.org/series/alcohol/bible
Please read this meditation, I got from my “Praying the Rosary” booklet about the wedding in Cana:
John’s gospel states that Jesus’ public ministry began at a wedding feast that was heading for failure. The wine was running out, which meant the joy of the celebration would be dampened and the couple and their families would be embarrassed. By changing water into wine, Jesus saved the day. His first miracle brought joy to a group of men and women. In fact, this is why he came: to bring “great joy to all people.”
“Do whatever he tells you,” his mother Mary said. Following Jesus can bring great joy to us too.
Please pray the Rosary, daily, for peace. The Rosary is the greatest weapon against evil. It was given for all faiths to pray it. Please read the latest messages from an apparition site in Elyria, OH at http://www.holylove.org. This Shrine is a loving gift from heaven. I’ve been there many times and experienced amazing miracles.
Please pray with the Pro-life Christians, who are going to Washington, DC, Wednesday, Jan. 22, 2014, for the March for Life, at the Capitol. God bless you all for loving Jesus!!!!
PS: Think about this, if there was no Mary, who said YES, there would not have been JESUS. Please love and honor Mary, because JESUS, her son does. She was always there for JESUS, especially at the Cross. You can’t believe how many people disrespect her.
Love always,
Anita
I am not clinging to any man-made traditions, but rather I seek only to know the traditions of God. I find it quite fair to see that wine is neither alcoholic nor non-alcoholic, but that the word for “wine” must be determined by the context of scripture since wine is admired from the grape, within the grape, and in the wine-press. I also find numerous warnings of alcoholic wine in the Scriptures, and numerous passages about the blessings of wine from the grape and press before becoming alcoholic. This is a very moderate and reasonable position considering the Scriptures. There are no passages admiring strong drink or drunkenness. The use of alcoholic wine outside of excesses, intoxication, and the like are outside of my judgment in the scriptures. Yet, I do prefer the medicinal use of non-alcoholic wine before alcoholic, because I have yet to see one verse blessing the use of intoxicating wine in the scriptures.
The Hebrew word for yayin does not always mean alcoholic wine, but this word is the same as the Greek oinos, which means grape juice whether alcoholic or not as noted above with supporting links to word-studies. This is the major flaw with your cited article. This writers has put biblical wine in a straightjacket. Otherwise, this writer could have given an honest interpretation and examination of the passages of Scriptures about wine.
Health benefits of grape juice:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/food-and-nutrition/expert-answers/FAQ-20058529
http://www.grapescience.com/concord-grapes-and-health/
All of those health benefits are for preventative health not for medicinal purposes. There was never a debate that grape juice is good for you. Again, you are just denying the facts. Fermented grape juice has medicinal value, and was used as such in ancient times, which is why Paul gave that advice to Timothy. I gave you sources detailing the different words used in the OT, now you want to deny their meanings. Take that argument up with the experts who disagree with you.
Again, read Romans 14. Does it contradict Gal 3:15?
You’re living by text and not by Spirit. The Spirit does not contradict the text, but God’s Spirit (within you) is able to discern what is right and what is wrong (Rom. 7). Your method of service to God is limited by what you read (as if the NT were another letter of law), not what you understand using God’s Spirit within you. Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
“Yeah. God recommended grape juice. Read the article above. Second, God does not have to sanction each thing, but when God spoke against murder, rape, adultery, and extortion without a positive comment about any of them, then we rightly conclude that these evils like drinking intoxicants are sinful.”
I think it’s obvious that you can twist the scriptures to say what you already want to believe it says. You clearly have a bias against alcoholic wine and are abusing the text to support your bias. A little murder, rape, adultery, and extortion are not good for anything. A little wine is good for many things, as the bible attests. Your reasoning is seriously flawed by your personal bias against what you don’t like. To call using wine a sin is absurd and laughable. You have spoken where the bible did not speak, which is as wrong as you suggest using wine is.
“Genesis 9:24
And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
Obviously Noah didn’t awake from the effects of grape juice. Grape juice doesn’t put one to sleep. But wine does! Think about that!
You are not even on the same page. You have not comprehended that a word could generally represent all grape juice whether alcoholic or not.
Not true. You cant just assign a meaning to a word when it suits you. No dictionary defines wine any other way but alcoholic.
Your methodology open lots of doors to changing the meaning of words in the bible. This is why I mistrust your theology.
Does wine go into winepresses and come from what is pressed in winepresses? Do wineskins contain wine before or after these expand? Certainly not.
Learn the origin and history of a word first. Douglas Harper’s Etymology Dictionary presents the origin and history of wine stating, “O.E. win, from P.Gmc. *winam (cf. O.S., O.Fris., O.H.G. win, O.N. vin, Du. wijn, Ger. Wein), an early borrowing from L. vinum “wine,” from PIE *win-o-, from an Italic noun related to words for “wine” in Gk. (oinos), Armenian, Hittite, and non-I.E. Georgian and West Semitic (cf. Arabic wain, Heb. yayin), probably from a lost Mediterranean language word *win-/*woin- “wine.” Also from L. vinum are O.C.S. vino, Lith. vynas, Welsh gwin, O.Ir. fin. Essentially the same word as vine (q.v.). The verb meaning “entertain with wine” is attested from 1862. Winery first recorded 1882, Amer.Eng. Wine snob is recorded from 1951.”
It seems glaringly apparent that he is changing scripture to support his bias. I am kind of giving up on trying to reason with him. I know wine is a stumbling block for many people and should be used with very careful judgment-Godly wisdom. In many cases you just have to avoid it, but the bible clearly does not teach against it. Some people don’t see this because they don’t want to see it. In my experience, I have found most people base this upon the many abuses they have seen in the world. While I understand that, it does not mean it cannot be used responsibly. we simply cannot bring our experience to the word of God and read it into it.
Not sure what your point is, Scott. Your post makes no sense. What does the wine press have to do with alcoholic content? The fact is that there is record of drunkenness in the Bible and the only alcoholic drink in Biblical times was wine. To try to explain away the fact that wine did not contain alcohol is absurd, given the reference to drunkenness in scripture. If God wanted us to know there was a difference between alcoholic and non-alcoholic He certainly would have made it clear to the Apostles, don’t you think?
“Wine is also condemned and warned against in the Scriptures from Noah to Lot to the Proverbs to (Habakkuk 2:15).”
This is an amusing comment in light of the following verse:.
Genesis 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
Amusing but sad. People still use alcohol today to uncover the nakedness of others.
Over use of wine may be condemned, but not the use of wine, as your comment suggested. Why would Noah condemn the use of wine while the bible having reference to his awaking from the effects of wine?
Have I condemned all use of wine? Take your moderation before God. I find no recommendation of alcoholic wine in scripture. Be warned of the dangers.
Does God need to recommend everything for it to be sanctioned? Did He recommend non-alcoholic Grape Juice?
Yeah. God recommended grape juice. Read the article above. Second, God does not have to sanction each thing, but when God spoke against murder, rape, adultery, and extortion without a positive comment about any of them, then we rightly conclude that these evils like drinking intoxicants are sinful.
I don’t see the bible condemning having a drink of wine at all. I see it condemning the abuse of wine though. This is one of those subjects that when a persons mind is made up about it they can read it into scripture and make the bible say what they want. It really doesn’t make sense to have a wedding and have fun and rejoice with grape juice. It doesnt make sense they would call Jesus a wine bibber if he only drank grape juice. Jesus isn’t advocating excessive drinking when he turned water into wine, they had a drink or two and enjoyed themselves, it’s not the use of wine, it’s the abuse of wine that’s wrong. Jesus said gluttony was wrong also, but he didn’t do away with food so people wouldnt eat in excess. As far as the bible okaying wine, see Deautoronomy 14:23 to 26. Not only was wine okay at the feast of tabernacles, so was strong drink. The people were to rejoice before God and have a great time. There is no way we can use scripture to justify drinking in excess because the bible shows that too much alcohol is a sin, but a drink or two without abusing it is not.
Charlie: Great comment. So true. It also does not make sense to say the wine Jesus made out of water was grape juice because the scripture says that an expert on wine tasted it at the wedding and he said that most people serve their best wine first and then after the people are buzzed from the good wine then a poorer wine is served and the people don’t notice because they are already feeling good and relaxed. But this expert said they had saved the best wine for last! Jesus made an excellent wine of superior quality such that a wine expert would taste it and make that comment. To say Jesus just made a really good grape juice is absurd.
I see that you saying that everyone was drunk and Jesus made more alcoholic wine rather than that everyone was filled with wine purely from the grape and Jesus made more of the God-made wine pressed from the grape.
Scott, you said: “I find the wedding feast using acceptable grapejuice, and then as Christ would, Jesus made exceptional grapejuice of the highest quality.”
This just sounds kind of silly to me, sorry. people of those days would not have gotten that upset at a party if they ran out of normal grape juice. You seem to imply there is some great difference between ordinary grape juice and normal. Can you support this with ANY historical evidence? Even any biblical evidence?
Also, you contrast being sober minded with being drunk. Ok, that seems logical, of course people who are drunk are not in sound judgment. But what is not logical is that abstinence automatically means someone has good judgment. Wrong. But that seems to be your point either someone is totally abstinent or they have no good judgment. I don;t think you have seriously pondered the view you are espousing.
The bible does not condemn wine- it is named as a blessing throughout the OT. The point is, like with many things, to use temperance and self control. If you can’t, then abstain. Period. And even if you can, but you drink causing another to stumble, then you are not showing love.
Let’s take this into the area of gluttony over food. Are you this passionate about people not over-eating? Or is that an acceptable sin?
The wine blessed throughout the Scriptures is grape juice, and whether that is alcoholic or not is the discussion. Wine is also condemned and warned against in the Scriptures from Noah to Lot to the Proverbs to Habakkuk (2:15). These scriptures are noted above.
The cause for understanding the storage of Biblical wine and that much of it was not or mildly alcoholic is in the source above from the International Bible Encyclopedia, so we would need to take that up with its sources.
I have some sources. From all I have searched for, it seems to indicate that alcoholic wine has been used in traditional wedding ceremonies for centuries.
http://ohr.edu/1087
http://ejf.hubpages.com/hub/The-Tradition-Of-Kosher-Wine-At-Your-Orthodox-Jewish-Wedding
I particularly advocate that you read this from the Jewish encylcopedia in it’s entirety:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14941-wine
Fascinating sources. Thank you. As far as these refer to the Bible, these are right in referring to wine whether alcoholic or not (I.e. Jewish Encyclopedia). Yet, both of these rely on the source of Egyptian Phariseeism found in Talmud of the 2nd c. AD. Whether these traditions originated from Jews after returning from the captivity or not, this does not matter after considering Jesus’ words and those of His Apostles. You can read those above.
This type of misleading thing happens more than it should. It’s done to support a preconceived belief that needs fortification to drive their point home. But its wrong because it is not the Truth.
Are we losing the meaning of the scripture? Blessed Mother did not want the family to be embarrassed, because they ran out of wine at the wedding celebration. She interceded and asked Jesus for help. It was not time for Jesus’s ministry to start, but because he loved His mother, he performed His first miracle. Is it really important what percentage of alcohol or if Jesus drank wine or grape juice? If it did matter, it would have said it in the Bible. The scripture is about the miracle, not the percentage of alcohol in the wine or if it was really grape juice. That is how I think about it. God bless you
the bible doesn’t say anything about Abortion. does this also mean it doesn’t matter? OF course not. Your argument is not logical. beside the fact that I think it does say. Wisdom is like silver, you have to mine for it.
I think this is worthy subject. People twist this miracle into permission for excessive drinking. Otherwise, I believe you are right Anita. I do believe that we need to defend our hope, and present the Truth in Christ’s words.
Jeffrey, For your consideration, the Bible does speak of causing a miscarriage and a life for a life (Exo. 21:22-23). Therefore, any reference to murder would include abortion.
first of all, that is not a miscarriage, it’s a premature birth. Secondly, it happens as a matter of accident, not intentionally. So, essentially it’s not an abortion. Anyways, pornography is not mentioned in scripture wither, so I will use that instead. Of course it is visual adultery, but the point was that just because something is not explicitly mentioned in scripture does not mean it is not important. But I do agree with Anita in spirit to a certain extent, we can make so much about the percentage or whether it is alcohol that we miss larger issues.
Scott, I am amused that you think that people “twist” this miracle into permission for “excessive” drinking.. really?? That is soooo not true. It’s not an “excuse” for anything. It is just proof that Jesus’ was living his life as a normal Jew in Palestine. Jews drank wine as often as we drink water and coffee….. and were taught “moderation” …..and warned against drunkenness. I firmly believe that Ministers should preach it that way as well.
Maybe Jesus made good tasting, special, heavenly wine that made you joyful, but not drunk. He was God-Man and with God all things are possible. Right? See messages at http://www.holylove.org.
True.
George:
I love the way you think. You are exactly correct. Many have commented here in an attempt to show Scott how he is twisting scripture to conform to his own church’s doctrine concerning the drinking of wine and other alcoholic beverages, but to no avail.
So, are these comments only against what is self-evident in being wrong?
I think the bible does have something to say about abortion, it’s called murder.
“Today, wines average 12-15% alcohol due to distilling that was invented centuries after the Bible was completed”
This is the most misleading thing I’ve ever seen anyone put in a paper. Today, we call a distilled grape wine Brandy, and it typically is 40% alcohol. What we call wine is made exactly like wine has been made all through biblical times. A fruit juice, fermented with natural yeasts. That’s wine, and it’s still just made like always. If you distill it, it becomes a liquor. Whiskey is distilled grain wine, brandy is distilled grape wine, etc. Why would anyone compare biblical wine to today’s LIQUOR? Is that intentionally misleading or do you have no idea how liquors and wines are made today?
It seems to me that preachers/people predetermine that drinking wine is a sin. The scriptures used against it are taken from passages warning against drunkenness. And since drinkin wine is a sin..Jesus would NEVER have turned water into wine!! Overlooking the fact that Jesus was a Jew …and Jews drinking wine was as common as us drinking water and coffee. Scriptures from Old and New…teach against getting drunk AND talking about moderation . Jesus had ample opportunities to teach that drinking wine was a sin..but he never did. I feel strongly that preachers should teach moderation…and warn against getting drunk. It seems better to teach the Bible as it says…not what you wish it said :)