Is this true that Jesus drank alcoholic wine as the lyrics, “Cause I heard Jesus, He drank wine”? Some question this. What kind of wine did Jesus drink? Did Jesus drink intoxicating amounts of wine?
The Definition of Biblical Wine
The word “wine” in the Bible is not always alcoholic or equivalent to modern wine. The Bible uses one Greek word for “wine” and “grape juice” which could mean alcoholic wine of varying amounts or non-alcoholic grape juice (1 Tim 3:8; Titus 2:3). The Hebrew word for “wine” is yayin and the Greek is oinos (MT; LXX). Biblical “wine” is grape juice that may or may not have fermented. However, the wine of today has considerably more alcohol than wine in the first century because of modified yeast. The Bible includes a number of examples of unfermented “wine”:
- “Wine” is the blood of the grape (Gen 49:11–12, Heb. yayin, Gr. oinos LXX; Deut 32:14, Heb. chemer; Gr. oinos LXX).
- The vineyard is the place of “red wine” (Isa 27:2, Heb. chemer).
- “Wine” refers to the grape juice from the grapes of the field (Deut 11:14; 2 Chr 31:5, Heb. tirosh; Gr. oinos LXX; Jer 40:10, 12, Heb. yayin; Gr. oinos LXX).
- Scripture describes “wine” that is in the grape (Isa 65:8, Heb. tirosh).
- The grape juice of the wine-press is “wine” (Prov 3:10, Heb. tirosh; Gr. oinos LXX; Isa 16:10; Jer 48:33, Heb. yayin; Gr. oinos LXX).
These references reveal that the word “wine” in Hebrew and Greek often refers to non-alcoholic grape juice in the Bible. Linguistics requires that one begin with the generic meaning and then determine other specific meanings of a word by its context and, or use.
In reading the Old Testament, Bible translations represent six different Hebrew words “wine” for which one word excludes alcohol. This word is asis meaning “sweet grape juice” or “new grape juice.” The word has no reference to alcohol, yet translators have interpreted it as “wine” to avoid interpreting the contexts with nuances and ambiguity. Therefore, the word “wine” does not necessarily mean alcoholic wine in the Bible.
The Bible does not appear to contain one positive statement about intoxicating wine or any such drink. The Bible does include positive words about generic “wine” that is grape juice (Gen 14:18; Num 15:5–10; Deut 14:26; Ps 104:15; Isa 55:1; Amos 9:14; John 2:1–11; 1 Tim 5:23). References to “strong drink” or “liquor” in the Bible refer to cider in biblical translations of sikera, σικερα, according to Danker and Gingrich’s Greek lexicon (cf. Deut 14:26; Luke 1:15; Wycliffe’s Bible).
Ancient Wine and Today’s Wine
In the Bible, alcoholic wine is not like wine today. The sugar of grape juice can only ferment to 3 or 4% alcohol with wild yeast — airborne yeast. For grape juice to exceed 4% alcohol, then the winemaker must add yeast. The yeast added to ancient wines produced between 4–11% alcohol. Alcohol kills these yeast cells and prevents levels of alcohol from exceeding ~10%. Today, wines average 12–20% alcohol due to modern fermentation by adding sulfur dioxide and Saccharomyces (a cultured GMO yeast) to a late harvest of ripened grapes with higher fructose (Winemaker Magazine, Wines & Vines, UC Davis, International Biblical Encyclopedia, “Alcohol in the Church,” Bible Wine). Today’s wine is not like biblical wine in regards to alcoholic content. Due to the later invention of distilling, strong drinks like liquor exceed 20% alcohol for which today’s wine is coming close to matching.
When reading the word “wine” in the Bible, the word may simply refer to grape juice or intoxicating wine not exceeding ~10% alcohol. The reader must interpret the word “wine” within its context to determine if it is alcoholic. However, biblical wine is certainly not like wine today.
Because of the use of the word “wine” in English Bibles, many presume that Jesus drank alcoholic wine. Jesus did not drink modern wine. The methods for fermenting highly-alcoholic wine had not yet been invented. Jesus’s opponents did accuse Him of being a “wine-drinker” from the Greek oinopoteis, because He came freely eating and also drinking grape juice unlike John the Baptist who restricted his eating and drinking (Matt 11:18–19; Luke 7:33–34). These antagonists appear to accuse Jesus of drinking alcoholic wine. However, when the reader considers the wedding that Jesus attended in Cana and Jesus’s institution of the Lord’s Supper, then His drinking of wine is not what many have presumed.
Water to Wine
What about Jesus turning water into wine? Upon reading John 2:1–11 in most English translations, many took the text as stating that Jesus turned water into intoxicating wine at the wedding in Cana, a small town in Galilee (John 2). These scriptures infer that the wedding guests “have well drunk” a large amount of oinos wine. The Greek word translated as “well drunk” is methuo meaning literally to fill or make full, and many times the word means “drunk” depending on the context. Translators correctly render methuo as “drunk” in contexts referring to drunkenness by drinking intoxicating wine or filling oneself with wine (Gingrich and Danker’s lexicon). John’s reference to the guests having “drunk well” and becoming full also implies that the wedding feast was relatively short especially if one takes this word in John 2:10 to mean that the guests were “drunk.”
In this case, Jesus either made more alcoholic wine for those who were drunk or He made more grape juice for those who would have their fill. Which is plausible: that Jesus created intoxicating wine for those who were drunk or that He made fresh “new wine,” grape juice, for those who had drunk well of the previous supply? If one interprets this passage as Jesus making alcoholic wine, then Jesus created more intoxicating wine for those who were already drunk or filled. If one perceives that the wedding guests were simply full of non-alcoholic wine, then Jesus made “new wine” with minimal to no alcohol.
Furthermore, “good wine” was limited late in winter and just before Passover when the wine had aged throughout the year (John 2:13). Jesus providing more aged and intoxicating wine would not have been an apparent miraculous sign. Jesus provided them with “good wine.” Was it “good wine” as though received from the grape press? The making of new wine would magnify Jesus’s sign because this was just before the Passover and before the first harvest of grapes. Therefore, Jesus’s production of fresh grape juice would have been an evident miraculous wonder of God.
The master of the feast depicted the situation that which the guests had filled themselves with wine from the meaning of “filled” of the Greek word methuo in John 2:9–10. A wedding feast may last a day and sometimes more (Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah). John depicted that many would have drunk well of the wine so the guests were full as implied by the Greek word methuo. Being filled with wine tells that this drinking of the wedding feast occurred in a short amount of time within a few hours. The guests would immediately drink the wine that Jesus made. If Jesus made alcoholic wine, Jesus would have made more intoxicating wine amounting to between 120 to 180 gallons of additional alcoholic wine. What would happen if three hundred guests “have well drunk” and then drank an additional 150 gallons of alcoholic wine? Jesus would have given each guest an additional 64 ounces of alcoholic wine. The average person would have drunk another 6–12 drinks of alcoholic wine if there were 300 guests. However, the abundance was part of the miracle like the 12 baskets of bread left over from feeding the 5,000. Maybe the wine was not meant to be consumed immediately.
Even considering a wedding party of a thousand guests who have well drunk, each person would have consumed about 19 ounces of wine. Presuming that this wine contained 10% alcohol because the scenario includes fermented wine and the guests drank it all in one day, Jesus would have aided a thousand people in binge drinking having intoxicated the guests with three additional drinks who were already intoxicated as indicated by the Greek methuo for having “well drunk.” For each guest to have had simply two more drinks, then the wedding would have had at least 1,600 attendees. Despite the number in attendance, Jesus would have presumably contributed a considerable amount of alcohol to those who were already filled with wine. For those proposing that Jesus made highly intoxicating wine like today’s wine, 16–24 ounces would intoxicate anyone at an alcoholic level of 12–15% according to the CDC. Either today’s intoxicating wine or first-century fermented wine appears to be an absurdity at this wedding.
To assume that Jesus made alcoholic wine is to assume that after everyone had drunk all the other wine, then Jesus made more intoxicating wine for all of those who had their fill. The scenario of Jesus producing alcoholic wine appears implausible and uncharacteristic of biblical commands to refrain from drunkenness. If Jesus did make a great amount of fermented wine, He would have aided the sin of drunkenness and excessive drinking and would have participated in a drinking party, which are all condemned by His disciple and apostle Peter in the Scriptures (1 Pet 4:3).
Wine and the Lord’s Supper
Did Jesus use alcoholic wine in the Lord’s Supper? What kind of wine would someone drink at a feast where yeast was thrown out? Many have assumed that Jesus drank wine because many churches have made alcoholic wine a part of the “Eucharist,” the Lord’s Supper. Did Jesus use highly alcoholic wine when He instituted the Lord’s Supper? First, the Scriptures never use the word “wine” in any of the four accounts of Jesus instituting the Lord’s Supper. Jesus mentioned the specific content of the cup containing “the fruit of the grapevine.” The passages about the Lord’s Supper make no reference to alcoholic wine. The Greek word for “wine” is never used in Scripture to describe any part of the Lord’s Supper.
Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper during the Passover Feast. What kind of wine did the Jews use during Passover? Jesus used unleavened bread in the Passover because this is also the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Israel threw out all leaven by God’s command including the leavened bread (Exod 13:6–7). The throwing out of the yeast implies that Israel removed the grape juice fermented by the leavening of yeast. Fermented wine was not likely a part of the Passover taught by Moses. Furthermore, Jesus referred to the contents of the cup as “fruit of the grapevine” in the Lord’s Supper indicating minimal to no fermentation even from wild yeast. The intent of the cup of the Lord was not to intoxicate.
What about those who got drunk by drinking the Lord’s Supper? Getting drunk by bringing intoxicating wine to the Lord’s Supper does not mean that Jesus gave the disciples alcoholic wine in the Lord’s Supper. First Corinthians 11:21–22 depicts, “Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk [methuo]” (ESV). This passage also uses the Greek word methuo, which can mean drunk or filled (cf. John 2:10). Some ate the Lord’s Supper as a meal so that they were filled and those who drank were also filled not necessarily drunk. However, Paul could have been correcting such intoxication as well. If one assumes that these Christians became drunk in the assembly using the grape juice for the Lord’s Supper, then they must also presume that those drinking brought enough intoxicating wine to get drunk and intended to use such for the Lord’s Supper. The use of alcoholic wine implies that some of these Christians brought intoxicating wine for the church to drink together for the Lord’s Supper. They would also have decided to drink and get drunk from that wine in assembly rather than wait for others. Whether the wine was alcoholic or not, 1 Corinthians 11 neither condones alcoholic wine for the Lord’s Supper nor suggests that Jesus used alcoholic wine for His disciples to commune with Christ in remembrance of His sacrificial blood.
Warnings about Wine
Jesus warned against drunkenness and filling oneself with intoxicating drinks that trap people in this life (Luke 21:34). The Bible warns those who do drink, linger, and look at the cup (Prov 23:29–35; Rom 14:17–22). Christians can and should warn others about alcohol.
The apostle Paul revealed that those who continue in drunkenness will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9–11; Gal 5:19–21). The Greek word translated “drunkenness” literally means “filling oneself” in Scripture (Eph 5:18–19; cf. Rom 13:13). Christ’s Spirit in Galatians 5:19–21 teaches that such “drunkenness” is a “work of the flesh” and “those who are doing such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5 also condemned “wild parties” or “revelries” where any of the lists of sins like drunkenness would constitute a party as sinful and carnal. Paul also revealed in 1 Corinthians 6:10 that drunkards “will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Drunkenness and filling one’s body with intoxicants is a sin.
Filling oneself with alcohol is evil and compromises the sobriety of the Christian conscience and one’s heart (cf. Rom 2:14–15; 1 John 3:19–21). Christ’s words and those of His apostles and prophets urge all to avoid drunkenness, and so Christians should do likewise and warn others of drunkenness. Peter warned, “For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Nations want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness [lit. excessive drinking], orgies, drinking parties [lit. drinkings], and lawless idolatry” (1 Pet 4:3). The word for “drunkenness” in 1 Peter 4:3 is not the usual word for drunkenness, but the Greek word is oinophlugia made of two words oinos meaning “wine” and phlugia is “to do something in excess.” Excessive drinking is a sin. Furthermore, “drinking parties” is translated from the Greek word potos, which literally denotes occasions that people gather for the purpose of drinking.
The apostle Paul commanded Christians to remain sober and make no provision to become drunk on any level (1 Thess 5:8). Christ had no part with drunkenness and drinking parties, so His followers must not. According to Romans 14, Christians should not condemn their brother over a drink; although, every Christian has the scriptural example and the foresight to warn against its use and against looking at the cup (Prov 23:29–35; Rom 14:17–22). Solomon warned by the wisdom of God.
Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it swirls around smoothly; At the last it bites like a serpent, And stings like a viper. Your eyes will see strange things, And your heart will utter perverse things. (Prov 23:31–33)
Therefore, “Wine is a mocker, Strong drink is a brawler, And whoever is led astray by it is not wise” (Prov 20:1). The assertions of positive statements about drinking alcohol in the Bible are private interpretations.
Conclusion
The wine that Jesus drank was not intoxicating. Alcoholic wine is not characteristic of Jesus or any godly behavior in the Bible. Jesus neither encouraged drunkenness nor drank intoxicating wine. No one can rightly reference Jesus to justify excessive drinking, drunkenness, and drinking events. The Bible neither promotes nor supports the drinking of intoxicants. God’s grace compels Christians no longer to continue in any excessive drinking of alcohol because they have been forgiven.
Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. (Rom 13:13–14)
Bibliography
- Jeff Chorniak. “Wild Yeast: The Pros and Cons of Spontaneous Fermentation.” Winemakers Magazine. 2005. <http://winemakermag.com/758-wild-yeast-the-pros-and-cons-of-spontaneous-fermentation>.
- Jean L. Jacobson. “Upsides of Wild Fermentation.” Wine & Vines, 2012. <http://www.winesandvines.com/template.cfm?section=features&content=98687>.
- “Marking Red Table Wine.” University of California Davis, 2016. <http://wineserver.ucdavis.edu/pdf/HWM3.pdf>.
- James Orr, M.A., D.D. “Wine; Wine Press.” International Bible Encyclopedia, 1915. <http://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/isb/view.cgi?n=9116>.
- “Alcohol in the Church.” 2016. <http://www.abidingplace.org/features/alcohol-in-the-church.html>.
- Kyle Pope. “Bible Wine.” Olsen Park church of Christ, 2013. <http://www.olsenpark.com/Sermons13/BibleWine.html>.
- Alfred Edersheim. The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah. Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1883. <https://www.ccel.org/ccel/edersheim/lifetimes>.
Related posts:
“Reconsider the Biblical Concept of Drunkenness“
The Breath of God 
8 In the same way, deacons[b] are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine,
As God’s managers, overseers must not be guilty of doing wrong, being selfish, or becoming angry quickly. They must not drink too much wine
You really don’t read the rest of the Bible, do you? For both the elder and the deacon, there is a statement re. drinking wine. How easy would it have been to say, “abstain?” There IS a biblical word for that!
Exodus 19:15 Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Numbers 6:3 they must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or other fermented drink. They must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 15:29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 21:25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 14:6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 Timothy 4:3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 Peter 2:11 [ Living Godly Lives in a Pagan Society ] Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul.
You are still not responding to the passages re. the use of wine I have sent you. Here are two more for you to consider.
Rudy:
I see. So according to your doctrine, there is no sin:
A) for a Christian to become “half drunk” as long as there is no connection with idols.
B) when anyone only has a couple of drinks and then drives, since “banquetings” only applies at a “prom” and there can be no evidence of a true lack of sobriety.
C) for a Christian to use marijuana, cocaine, LSD, etc. in “moderation”
D) for a drug dealer to sell any combination of the items in “C” to children, other than irrational government laws against them, because the Bible is silent about them.
Once again, you are failing to deal with the passages from Scripture. You can try red herrings and all, but please deal with the Biblical passages. We are talking about what the BIBLE said about the use of wine and strong drink, intermingled with what our attitude should be towards our weaker brethren (Which BTW, goes much further than considering their feelings), but that is a different track.
Rudy,
Revellings is a state where one is “half drunken”. It makes no difference whether the cause of it is in celebration of a false deity or not. And what do you do with the word “banquetings”? This is described as simply “a drinking”. Why would Peter condemn the simple drinking of grape juice? Since the word is in immediate succession with two other words that plainly describe a loss of sobriety by intoxicating drink, it follows that the “drinking” here refers to something considered not fully drunken or half drunken. People who get ticketed for driving after two drinks are not considered fully or half drunk, yet they aren’t considered fully sober either. Thus, the word banquetings would fit the condition of the obviously non-sober driver quite nicely. And it is described as “excess of riot” in the next verse.
Once again, you are ignoring the Biblical texts.
The excesses which Peter speaks of, and which Thayer defines, are associated with the festivities dedicated to idols. And the “banqueting” is not like the PROM banquet, or the banquet offered for people retiring from their jobs. It is, as with the alcohol, an overindulging, a gorging.
If you really want to learn something about the usage of Greek, I would suggest you use TDNT (Theological Dictionary of the New testament – the actual BOOKS).
Rudy:
Phil. 3:19 speaks of those whose “god is their belly” (fleshly desires). Any other god than the true God is an idol (1 Cor. 8:4-6). So those which elevate their desire to casually consume intoxicating wine (drug use) above God’s will is engaging in idolatry (Col. 3:5).
There is nothing in the definition of “banqueting” that remotely suggests restricting it to “prom” or “retirement” ceremony drinking. You said it means eating, yet that is nowhere suggested in the definition as the word is used in 1 Pet. 4:3; neither is overindulging.
So not only are you only ignoring Scripture, you’re twisting it and doing the like thing Ahab falsely charged Elijah with (1 Kings 18:17-18).
Phil. 3:19 speaks of those whose “god is their belly” (fleshly desires). Any other god than the true God is an idol (1 Cor. 8:4-6). So those which elevate their desire to casually consume intoxicating wine (drug use) above God’s will is engaging in idolatry (Col. 3:5).
There is nothing in the definition of “banqueting” that remotely suggests restricting it to “prom” or “retirement” ceremony drinking. You said it means eating, yet that is nowhere suggested in the definition as the word is used in 1 Pet. 4:3; neither is overindulging.
So not only are you only ignoring Scripture, you’re twisting it and doing the like thing Ahab falsely charged Elijah with (1 Kings 18:17-18).
==
I understand that contextual reading is something not everybody understands. Within the context where the term is used (Idolatry) the meaning must be found. So, a broader look (Other than Vine or Thayer) would help you get a better understanding. I strongly suggest you get a set of TDNT (all 10 Volumes are available for about $ 100.00 or so) since this is about the best reference work available on the usage of Greek words in the New testament.
Twisting scripture is a serious accusation. I am so glad that I can hold my head high, and say that the accusation is ungrounded.
So, how about the response to the passages I sent (including the extra ones about elders and deacons)???
Rudy, just so you know, it is just as sinful to be half drunk or a little drunk as it is to be “rip roaring drunk” (1 Pet. 4:3-4). One loses his/her sobriety when they get a little drunk, when they engage in social drinking and cannot safely drive a vehicle (1 Thess. 5:6-8). It is your teaching that does not “echo” the teachings of these verses.
Are we even reading the same texts??? The passage which I read in 1 Peter 4 speaks against the old life style of drunkenness, and revelries and orgies. NOT against the drinking of wine or “strong drink.”
In Chapter 5 Peter speaks of being sober – but that is not the antithesis of being drunk! I know quite a few people who have never drunk a sip of any kind of alcohol – but are about as far from “sober minded” as you can get.
Rudy:
No; you have an alternate option: reject the truth and believe a lie. Either way, you haven’t proven how this is forcing anything on anyone.
You did not properly answer my last argument about Deut. 14:26. Only citing an alleged anonymous “(formerly) Jewish friend” as an answer doesn’t prove anything about the passage. What you need to do is show how 1 Pet. 4:3-4 and the other verses commanding the Christian to be sober can allow for the casual or social consumption of a mind altering drug. Or how such helps a Christian be a better father, a better example to those in the world, etc.
ESV:
22 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23 And before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.
ASV
22 Thou shalt surely tithe all the increase of thy seed, that which cometh forth from the field year by year. 23 And thou shalt eat before Jehovah thy God, in the place which he shall choose, to cause his name to dwell there, the tithe of thy grain, of thy new wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herd and of thy flock; that thou mayest learn to fear Jehovah thy God always. 24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it, because the place is too far from thee, which Jehovah thy God shall choose, to set his name there, when Jehovah thy God shall bless thee; 25 then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thy hand, and shalt go unto the place which Jehovah thy God shall choose: 26 and thou shalt bestow the money for whatsoever thy soul desireth, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul asketh of thee; and thou shalt eat there before Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou and thy household. 27 And the Levite that is within thy gates, thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no portion nor inheritance with thee.
NIV
22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the Lord your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the Lord your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.
NKJV
22 “You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23 And you shall eat before the Lord your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the Lord your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the Lord your God has blessed you, 25 then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the Lord your God chooses. 26 And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household. 27 You shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.
NCV
22 Be sure to save one-tenth of all your crops each year. 23 Take it to the place the Lord your God will choose where he is to be worshiped. There, where you will be together with the Lord, eat the tenth of your grain, new wine, and oil, and eat the animals born first to your herds and flocks. Do this so that you will learn to respect the Lord your God always. 24 But if the place the Lord will choose to be worshiped is too far away and he has blessed you so much you cannot carry a tenth, 25 exchange your one-tenth for silver. Then take the silver with you to the place the Lord your God shall choose. 26 Use the silver to buy anything you wish—cattle, sheep, wine, beer, or anything you wish. Then you and your family will eat and celebrate there before the Lord your God. 27 Do not forget the Levites in your town, because they have no land of their own among you.
MSG
22-26 Make an offering of ten percent, a tithe, of all the produce which grows in your fields year after year. Bring this into the Presence of God, your God, at the place he designates for worship and there eat the tithe from your grain, wine, and oil and the firstborn from your herds and flocks. In this way you will learn to live in deep reverence before God, your God, as long as you live. But if the place God, your God, designates for worship is too far away and you can’t carry your tithe that far, God, your God, will still bless you: exchange your tithe for money and take the money to the place God, your God, has chosen to be worshiped. Use the money to buy anything you want: cattle, sheep, wine, or beer—anything that looks good to you. You and your family can then feast in the Presence of God, your God, and have a good time.
27 Meanwhile, don’t forget to take good care of the Levites who live in your towns; they won’t get any property or inheritance of their own as you will.
NLT
22 “You must set aside a tithe of your crops—one-tenth of all the crops you harvest each year. 23 Bring this tithe to the designated place of worship—the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored—and eat it there in his presence. This applies to your tithes of grain, new wine, olive oil, and the firstborn males of your flocks and herds. Doing this will teach you always to fear the Lord your God.
24 “Now when the Lord your God blesses you with a good harvest, the place of worship he chooses for his name to be honored might be too far for you to bring the tithe. 25 If so, you may sell the tithe portion of your crops and herds, put the money in a pouch, and go to the place the Lord your God has chosen. 26 When you arrive, you may use the money to buy any kind of food you want—cattle, sheep, goats, wine, or other alcoholic drink. Then feast there in the presence of the Lord your God and celebrate with your household. 27 And do not neglect the Levites in your town, for they will receive no allotment of land among you.
The majority of the translations use the imperative, “must” or even “use.” I rest my case.
Next one:
NLT
3 You have had enough in the past of the evil things that godless people enjoy—their immorality and lust, their feasting and drunkenness and wild parties, and their terrible worship of idols.
4 Of course, your former friends are surprised when you no longer plunge into the flood of wild and destructive things they do. So they slander you.
MSG
3-5 You’ve already put in your time in that God-ignorant way of life, partying night after night, a drunken and profligate life. Now it’s time to be done with it for good. Of course, your old friends don’t understand why you don’t join in with the old gang anymore. But you don’t have to give an account to them. They’re the ones who will be called on the carpet—and before God himself.
NCV
3 In the past you wasted too much time doing what nonbelievers enjoy. You were guilty of sexual sins, evil desires, drunkenness, wild and drunken parties, and hateful idol worship. 4 Nonbelievers think it is strange that you do not do the many wild and wasteful things they do, so they insult you.
NKJV
For we have spent enough of our past lifetime[b] in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
NIV
For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you
ASV
For the time past may suffice to have wrought the desire of the Gentiles, and to have walked in lasciviousness, lusts, winebibbings, revellings, carousings, and abominable idolatries: 4 wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them into the same [d]excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
ESV
3 For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry. 4 With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you;
Note that the majority of the above use “drunkenness” as the descriptor.
Another one for your consideration.
An elder must not be given to “much” wine – not “abstain,” but not given to “much” wine
Now, you can argue until you are blue in the face, but abusing Scripture is not the solution of your dilemma! You have not shown a single verse where we are told, either in the Old or New testament, that children of God must abstain from wine “or strong drink” – unless there is a vow involved.
Again, this is not saying that gary et al believe that we should have barrels of wine available, get rip roaring drunk and lose all self control. What it IS saying that, with moderation, there is no Biblical inhibition to the drinking of wine or “strong drink.”
The Bible does not echo your words.
The contexts of Deut. 14:26 indicate an option of what they may buy, and even then, there is no requirement that they buy strong drink, which is to be poured out as an offering as indicated by other Bible texts. Your interpretation would have God authorizing recreational drug use and a loss of sobriety without a medical cause, which is ludicrous and completely unreasonable.
Here’s what you really mean in your second to last paragraph: “You have not shown a single verse where we are told, either in the Old or New testament, that children of God must abstain from” social or recreational drug use – “unless there is a vow involved”.
You have yet to show where either the New or Old Testament authorizes the casual or social use of mind altering drugs, or how such loss of sobriety helps a Christian be a better father, a better example to those in the world, etc., especially in light of such passages as 1 Pet. 4:3-4.
I noticed you ignored the statement in 1 Peter 4 in the different versions that I posted. DRUNIKENNESS is condemned.
The language in Deut 14 has the IMPERATIVE form of the words. Imperative means DO, not “Do if you so choose to…” “Toss a coin, and see what the outcome is…”
It’s like STOP on a traffic sign. It does not mean “when you see traffic coming.” You stop. Even when you know there will not be another car passing that intersection until you go back that same way, 100 minutes later.
There was no choice BUT to invite the stranger, the orphan, the widow and the levite. Now, you again have the same issue. You either accept the Biblical texts as they are written, or you don’t.
That is an argument you will have to take up with the original Author. All I can do is say, “This is what God said…”
Passages which deal with the overindulgence of alcoholic beverages are numerous. No one argues against those. But unless you realize that yes, there is a freedom (clearly) which allows fo the drinking of wine, and there are passages which warn against over-indulgence.
From Thayer’s definition concerning revellings in 1 Pet. 4:3:
A.a nocturnal and riotous procession of half drunken and frolicsome fellows who after supper parade through the streets with torches and music in honour of Bacchus or some other deity, and sing and play before houses of male and female friends; hence used generally of feasts and drinking parties that are protracted till late at night and indulge in revelry
Thayer’s definition for banquetings in 1 Pet. 4:3: I.a drinking, carousing
Note the decreasing level of drunkenness in describing the lack of sobriety in 1 Pet. 4:3: excess of wine (drunkenness), revellings (half drunkenness) and banquetings (“a drinking”, or social drinking — a little drunk). This is describing social or casual drug use in the form of alcoholic drink. All levels of drunkenness are condemned in 1 Pet. 4:3; they are all described as “excess of riot: in the next verse.
One of the problems with quoting Thayer and actually reading what he says. Your “conclusion,” that “This is describing social or casual drug use in the form of alcoholic drink…” is obviously wrong.
This is what you quoted from Thayer: “A.a nocturnal and riotous procession of half drunken and frolicsome fellows who after supper parade through the streets with torches and music in honour of Bacchus or some other deity, and sing and play before houses of male and female friends; hence used generally of feasts and drinking parties that are protracted till late at night and indulge in revelry…”
Where is the “casual” and “socia;” use here? These are planned events, with specific purpose (honoring Bacchus or other idols).
Once again, please respond to the passages re the Nazirite vow.
You do realize that the “be sober” is not the opposite of being drunk, correct? Sober minded is an altogether different concept that not having had any alcohol.
“The definition of sober-minded is someone who is serious and sensible. A person who is studious and logical is an example of someone who would be described as sober-minded. YourDictionary definition and usage example. Copyright © 2016 by LoveToKnow Corp”
“1. rational; sensible.. ”
Sober. 1. quiet, serious, solemn, grave or sedate 2.
characterized by reason, sanity or self-control; showing
mental and emotional balance. (Webster’s New World
Dictionary)
Sober-minded. adj. having or showing a sober mind; self-
controlled; sensible; reasonable. (World Book Dictionary)
From Vine’s Expository Dictionary:
<B-1,Verb,3525,nepho>
signifies “to be free from the influence of intoxicants;” in the NT, metaphorically, it does not in itself imply watchfulness, but is used in association with it, 1 Thess. 5:6,8; 2 Tim. 4:5; 1 Pet. 1:13; 4:7, RV (AV, “watch”); 5:8.
One or two drinks clearly causes one to violate the Bible definition of this word.
By whose measure do “One or two drinks clearly causes one to violate the Bible definition of this word?”
Yours?
You still have to deal with the passages re the vows etc. i sent you the other day. Ignoring them does not make the point go away.
I will respond to this by saying by whose measure do one or two snorts of cocaine make it excessive and sinful? How about one or two hits of a marijuana joint? One or two moderate injections of heroine?
And Numbers 6:3 deals with vinegar of wine and strong drink (Ruth 2:14). Even if you could prove this to be intoxicating, you’d still have to prove God gave the go ahead to take drugs socially. They wouldn’t need to anyway, because the vows were made during the time of miracles — God healed people of illness according to His will miraculously in those days, which obviously doesn’t happen today.
We are not talking about the use of cocaine. We are talking about what the BIBLICAL text says about the use of alcohol.
“And Numbers 6:3 deals with vinegar of wine and strong drink (Ruth 2:14). Even if you could prove this to be intoxicating, you’d still have to prove God gave the go ahead to take drugs socially.
“6 Again the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When a man or woman makes a [a]special vow, the vow of a [b]Nazirite, to [c]dedicate himself to the Lord, 3 he shall abstain from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes. 4 All the days of his [d]separation he shall not eat anything that is produced by the grape vine, from the seeds even to the skin.”
And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When either a man or a woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite,[a] to separate himself to the Lord, 3 he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried. 4 All the days of his separation[b] he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, not even the seeds or the skins.
Clearly, the Lord made it very specific: Not only to abstain from win and strong drink, but EVEN vinegar made from either.
They wouldn’t need to anyway, because the vows were made during the time of miracles — God healed people of illness according to His will miraculously in those days, which obviously doesn’t happen today.”
Not quite sure what this has to do with the Biblical text. You DO realize that the time of the Nazirite vows was not limited to a certain part of history, right?
The use of the wine, strong drink was obviously acceptable to God, (again), or there would not be this specific statement in the Nazirite vow to ABSTAIN from such.
Rudy:
You said, “I will never argue with anyone over personal preferences. But your preferences are not mine, and as such, you have no Biblical right to force your preferences upon others.”
A) Yet you are arguing over personal preferences, and have been, over the past several posts (and not just with me, but others). So this is a blatantly false statement.
B) Please demonstrate how I am forcing my preferences on others, when they are forced to believe anything I write. They are free to accept or reject the things I teach. So this is another statement that is untrue.
As I have continually affirmed from my very first post, unintoxicating wine (or grape juice – Isa.65:8) is fine to casually or socially drink. And intoxicating wine, just like any medication (1 Tim 5:23), may be used for a legitimate medicinal purpose. So your repeated implications that I believe the Bible forbids wine is absolutely false.
Your position is to teach others that it’s good to violate explicit passages of scripture that command complete sobriety by encouraging others to use mind altering drugs in a social or recreational manner (As well as ignore passages such as 1 Pet. 4:3-4; Prov. 23, etc.) You are free to teach false, destructive doctrine and ignore the truth, just as those of the circumcision did, or such as those in the denominations do today. And I am likewise free to challenge such by reasoning from the Scriptures, or by anyone else who knows what your teaching is (2 John 9-11).
Second paragraph should read, “…when they are not forced to believe anything I write.”
The moment you tell me that my behavior, based on my conclusions is sinful, and your behavior, based on your conclusions is not, you ARE forcing me to believe your conclusions!
And I noticed you totally ignored the statements re the Nazirite vow – and the obvious conclusions from that behavior, as settled by God.
Let me help you understand. When God LIMITS the use of wine and strong drink for ALL, there is no reason to limit it for SOME. Since God limited their use for SOME, it is only logical that he APPROVED their use for ALL – unless they become part of the few.
And that’s where your problem rests: God has clearly spoken, and His statements differ from your statements. Guess which statements I prefer?
Hi Rudy,
You mentioned, “Since God limited their use for SOME, it is only logical that he APPROVED their use for ALL – unless they become part of the few.
And that’s where your problem rests: God has clearly spoken, and His statements differ from your statements. Guess which statements I prefer?”
I haven’t been able to read the whole string between you and Ozanark. But regarding what you wrote above, God only approved the use of alcohol if it’s not sinful. He’s CLEAR on that also. Since 15% of the population are predisposed to addiction, or problem drinking, both of which I’d define by their nature as sinful, alcohol has its clear and present dangers, and clear and present limits CLEARLY laid out in God’s Word. Among these are moderate drinking, and drinking that does not stumble others, which according to Romans 14:22 should be between yourself and God I’d there’s any chance you’ll stumble others. There are many others cautions and warnings about alcohol given in Scripture, all the more practical today with greater alcohol volume through modern fermentation. These limits on all Christians regarding drinking is CLEAR, from God’s Word.
I agree that God has set limits on drinking alcohol. The ONLY limit that He has set is: Don’t get drunk. He did not say anywhere, “Don’t drink it.” UNLESS you have taken a vow, or are a Levite.
Simple. Clear. Biblical. Easy to understand. Easy to follow.
People got drunk in the Old Testament. People got drunk in the New Testament. The answer in both is, “Don’t get drunk.” God could have said, “Don’t touch wine.” He was very clear on other things that were not to be eaten or drunk. But God did not say that, did he? He said, specifically, that those who took a vow could not drink wine or strong drink until the vow was completed. Did that mean he could get rip-roaring drunk?
Of course not!
And somehow, Bruce, that is what you seem to think Gray et al seem to conclude.
None of us from our side of the argument have ever defended such behavior. But you cannot get around the Biblical text that do approve of drinking wine or strong drink.
Our behavior toward the weaker brother should be no different in the case of addictive behavior or consistent unkindness.
I truly enjoy a good steak. I am sure to buy my meat from a place where I know it is not contaminated with all kinds of hormones etc. I not only enjoy the eating, I enjoy the preparing, the side dishes, the cooking. But do you really think my first invitation would go to a committed vegetarian?
“B) Please demonstrate how I am forcing my preferences on others,”
Simple. If you are right, then I am wrong. If I do not want to be wrong, I have only one option left: Accept your answer.
So, how about the statements re. Nazirites?
Rudy:
You say none of my “requirements” have any Bible basis — so I guess there’s no Bible “requirement” to set a good example for children (and others) by maintaining sobriety and avoiding half drunkenness and social drinking, that the word of God may be not blasphemed (1 Pet. 4:3-4; Rom. 2:17-24; Tit. 2:4-5) – even though the Bible says otherwise. It’s okay for one to consume something considered a stumbling block to the weak, and to the ultimate destruction of his soul (1 Cor. 8:9-11). It must be okay to live for self in complete disregard for others (Phl. 2:4) Correct?
In addition to this, there must not be any Bible requirement to avoid the consumption of non-essential substances that would hinder the ability to discern between right and wrong (Prov. 31:4-5; 1 Pet 5:8). Hence, you should have no problem providing a logical defense to repeal our (The United States) foolish drinking and driving laws. After all, according to you, there is no effective difference in a person’s ability to safely judge and react quickly enough to drive — whether they’ve imbibed either 24 ounces of grape juice mixed with seltzer, water, intoxicating wine or beer. Any other conclusion is completely irrational and illogical and only a rube would argue otherwise – right?
You should also have no problem recommending a loved one to schedule an appointment with a dentist who has only had “a couple of drinks” prior to doing a root canal, or perhaps a doctor who likewise drinks before performing brain surgery. What about this?
You say you “QUOTED” the last paragraph of my post. I know of another who quoted part of a statement of truth (Matt. 4:6), but it turned out to be a lie (Matt. 4:7).
Instead of quoting Scripture, you provided a link for my “education”. Below are some for your benefit:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12083471
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-answers/food-and-nutrition/faq-20058529
These links contain studies that say health benefits of grape juice are no different than intoxicating wine. And I don’t believe I need to provide links that show physical exercise is going to have a far better effect than on alleged heart benefits than the drinking of intoxicating wine. Not to mention the eating of whole foods such as grapes (which the studies also mention) may be more beneficial than drinking either, because intoxicating wine and juice has no dietary fiber. But at least grape juice has no power to cause one’s sobriety to be lost.
But by all means, go ahead and continue to spread your illogical, inconsistent and selfish conclusions. I will continue to oppose such falsehoods with equal fervor (2 Cor. 10:4-5; Tit. 1:13-14). I reject the statement that “…Scripture argues for a moderation for wine” (I.e. – mind altering drugs). So ought everyone else (Rom. 16:17-19).
One of the things I teach my students is to look at all the facts, be fair to the text, and do not allow for premature conclusions. If you have a personal preference to abstain from alcohol (or chocolate, or what ever), that is just fine. That is not where my problem lies.
I will never argue with anyone over personal preferences. But your preferences are not mine, and as such, you have no Biblical right to force your preferences upon others.
You remind me of the Judaizers, who insisted that Gentile believers were to be circumcised before God could really accept them.
Gary and others, me among those, have made a clear, Biblical case for the fact that wine was an allowed choice for God’s people. As a matter of fact, it is only under the Nazirite vow that wine was to be abstained from – and then only for the duration of the vow.
Some references:
“But you made the Nazirites drink wine, and commanded the prophets, saying, ‘You shall not prophesy.’ – Amos 2:12 NOTE: See how the problem is presented? You MADE the Nazirite drink wine – not: It’s wrong for EVERYBODY to drink wine
“…but he said to me, ‘Behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. So then drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.’ – Judges 13:7 – NOTE: Samson’s mother was told NOT to drink win or STRONG drink. Logical conclusion? It was allowed for women who were NOT to be the mother of Samson to drink both wine AND strong drink.
“…and the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the Lord. They are a holy portion for the priest, together with the breast that is waved and the thigh that is contributed. And after that the Nazirite may drink wine….” Numbers 6:20 NOTE: That means that BEFORE taking the Nazirite vow is was acceptable to drink wine, and AFTER the Nazirite vow was completed it was acceptable to drink wine.
Now, you can choose to ignore these FACTS. That is your option. The case is laid out clearly, that neither the Old nor the New Testament forbid the use of wine.
One could go back even further in the Biblical record, and look at Noah. He was condemned for being DRUNK, not for drinking wine. And yes, you can make all sorts of other arguments like, “If he never had made wine, he never would have been drunk…” but I hope you won’t fall to that level.
As i said before, a balanced view of Scripture is what is needed, and not a gathering of passages that “fit my goal…” and “my desired outcomes…”
In reply to your links, note that the second answer is, “Does grape juice offer the same heart benefits as red wine? Answers from Katherine Zeratsky, R.D., L.D.
Possibly….”
Not sure about where you grew up, but where I grew up, “possibly” was never considered a definitive answer…
Apart from that, it has no relationship with the Biblical statements re. the allowance of drinking wine and or strong drink.
The point here is, this is a nutrition expert in the field; her opinion holds just as much weight as others. Unless you want to argue Christians must agree with the majority of “experts” at all times, or their conclusions are false.
When most scientists believed the sun revolved around the Earth in the 1500s, did their belief make geocentricism a scientific fact? Most scientists today disbelieve in God’s existence…does that mean Christians should abandon their faith?
Still ignoring the Biblical texts.
Which does not change the fact that “possibly” is not near as clear a statement that other medical sites make when talking about the benefits of drinking one or two glasses of wine a day.
Of course, for your information, a person who is drunk only ONCE a year, but at the same time (i.e. some kind of anniversary date) is also considered an alcoholic…
Rudy:
You are ignoring the Bible text that says it is better for a man to not drink wine in Rom. 14:21, if a brother is offended, made weak, etc. — regardless of whether there is a health benefit involved.
And BTW, what also “does not change” is that both claims of the “benefits of drinking one or two glasses of wine a day” to the benefits of drinking grape juice are subject to revision, just as the theory of geocentricism is.
So when most scientists believed the sun revolved around the Earth in the 1500s, their belief made geocentricism a scientific fact. Correct? And since most scientists today disbelieve in God’s existence, Christians should abandon their faith, because God doesn’t exist. After all, it must be true since a bunch of scientists believe so!
“You are ignoring the Bible text that says it is better for a man to not drink wine in Rom. 14:21, if a brother is offended, made weak, etc. — regardless of whether there is a health benefit involved”
== No, I am NOT ignoring those. As a matter of fact, I have dealt extensively with Romans 14. .
So when most scientists believed the sun revolved around the Earth in the 1500s, their belief made geocentricism a scientific fact. Correct? And since most scientists today disbelieve in God’s existence, Christians should abandon their faith, because God doesn’t exist. After all, it must be true since a bunch of scientists believe so!
== If I believed in the “majority” argument, I would have used that a long time ago. Obviously, the majority of people believe in the use of alcoholic beverages. But that is neither here nor there in this conversation.
The issue is NOT drunkenness.
The issue is NOT abstinence.
The issue is NOT the weaker brethren.
The issue IS: Does the Biblical text tell us that the use of wine or strong drink is prohibited? And the answer to that can only be a categorical NO, the Biblical text does no such thing – neither in the Old or New Testament do we see such an injunction.
Rudy,
Your replies basically boil down to straw man arguments and attributing beliefs that I not only do not hold, but are nowhere to be found in my previous replies.
There is nothing logical about classifying caffeine, nicotine or obesity in the same category as alcohol, and you know it. Caffeine, and other drugs of such like, do not impair judgment. There is no reputable authority, whether medical or otherwise, that would agree with your statements — they are completely illegitimate and unfounded.
You haven’t given a valid reason why a Christian may drink intoxicating wine for the sole purpose of being a better spouse or parent, of because it helps one decide what’s right or wrong, etc., because there isn’t any. There is no justifiable reason for taking drugs of this nature (without a valid purpose already specified previously), other than a complete disregard of what the scriptures teach on this subject (1 Pet 4:3-4; Prov. 23:29-35).
In light of my previous posts, the implication that I teach any kind of wine drinking is sinful is a bold-faced lie. I again point out, you and others are teaching principally there is no problem with the casual or social use of a mind-altering substance. Again, what’s wrong with the casual use of marijuana, cocaine, MDMA, methamphetamine, PCP, etc., as long as they are used in “moderation”?
Since none of the requirements you set have any biblical basis, I saw no need to answer. As far as my statement re your teaching is concerned, I QUOTED the last paragraph of your post.
What I, and others, are pointing out, that it is an incorrect conclusion that the Bible teaches a believer cannot drink wine without sinning.
For your education:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/265635.php
Now, as you would argue moderation with food, so Scripture argues for a moderation for wine.
No matter how many passages you quote, you are stuck with two obvious statements which allow for the use of wine.
None of us argues for a “let it all hang out…” approach to the use of wine. What we argue FOR, is a correct interpretation of the word of God.
Rudy,
I’m sorry the missionaries you met exerted a bad influence on you. It appears they used faulty reasoning in defending some of their doctrines. But it seems you’ve picked up some of those same traits, and it is causing you to likewise reason erroneously here. For instance, you seem to think “gluttony” and “overeating” have something to do with our topic. I’ll ask the same question here as I did with chocolate, caffeine and ketchup. Have you ever read of an instance where anyone was pulled over for a DUI because they ate too much at the Golden Corral, or because they weighed 400 pounds?
Yes, gluttony is sinful (and the stuffing of one’s gut may be a symptom of the problem, not the root of it). Yes, obesity can kill people, but so does cancer, hypertension, diabetes, etc. Does obesity cause a loss of sobriety? If not, then perhaps you can also tell me what this has to do with the price of tea in China.
As for Deut. 14:26…the NASB translates: “You may spend the money for…”. Even the context of the KJV translation lets the reader know all of the things listed are not mandatory to buy (…for oxen OR for sheep OR for wine…). The things listed there are examples of what was acceptable unto the Lord for purchase — not compulsory, as you assert. And even if “strong drink” was purchased, you’d still have to prove they had authority to use this drug for casual purposes…something the Old and New Testament expressly condemns.
You say I am, “…comparing the moderate use of alcohol with drugs”. Question: what do you think “alcohol” is? Is it a food or a nutrient? No, it’s a…drug. So what I’m attempting to do here is compare the improper or sinful use of one drug (intoxicating wine, or drink) with all other drugs. Does that clarify things for you?
Hopefully, you’ve recovered from your bypass surgery well. I don’t believe the Bible condemns the prescribed use of “painkillers” for such (1 Tim. 5:23; John 10:34; Prov. 31:6). What does the name “painkiller” imply? The drug is manufactured for the use of killing pain. But what if you don’t have any pain to “kill”? Then its use is improper – and if it’s a mind altering “painkiller” someone is taking for no legitimate medical purpose, the reasonable conclusion would be it’s being used for social or recreational purposes. Do you have a problem with this, Rudy? Do you believe one sins when he recreationally consumes mind altering “painkillers” in “moderation”? If so, then maybe you’ll begin to see why I linked intoxicating wine in the same category as marijuana, cocaine, LSD, methamphetamine, “magic mushrooms”, etc. in my previous response.
This has nothing to do with “balance” or having my “mind made up”. It is also of no consequence whether the wine is “fermented” or has a miniscule amount of alcohol. What matters is that we know a) that the beverage is intoxicating in nature and b) there is an existing medical ailment that would warrant its use to treat or help endure the existing condition. If not, then drinking it as grape juice (or non-intoxicating wine) in any amount is excessive, sinful and wrong (1 Pet. 4:3-4).
Now we get into the battle of the versions. Having checked this with a (formerly) Jewish friend, I am satisfied that the correct usage is “shall” – a command. Same word used in the phrase about the Levite to be invited – not a choice, but a command.
You are the one who brought in the danger of “mind altering substance.” I just took that down it’s logical path.
Next, what about DUI’s? If I stay under the legal limit of 0.008, I will not receive a DUI. Is that the dividing line? According the the American Medical association, 1 – 2 glasses is good for heart disease and many other things. Now it is medical. Am I good now?
You pick some arbitrary guidelines, and when they don’t work for you, you pick other ones!
Years ago, a well known missionary in German spent $ 20,000.00 (when the dollar was still linked to the gold price!) on defending his point that any time the Bible uses wine, it actually means grape juice.
I did not say that these missionaries exerted that kind of influence on me – all I said was that this was there message to European people. It showed where their roots were – Southern US.
As a school kid in the Netherlands, I was already taking swimming classes, and we all swam together. It was not until 4th grade that boys and girls got separate dressing spaces. It never entered my mind that that was wrong.
More later
“For instance, you seem to think “gluttony” and “overeating” have something to do with our topic. I’ll ask the same question here as I did with chocolate, caffeine and ketchup. Have you ever read of an instance where anyone was pulled over for a DUI…”
Nope. I’ll grant you that. But have you ever looked at the number of people who had car crashes because the other driver went into diabetic coma, heart attack and such because of their obesity? Or the fact that their reflexes were way to slow?
And of course these have to do with our topic! MODERATION is the solution of the problem. Not how many or if any DUI was handed out.
You made “mind altering” a point. So I showed you how many other substances we use that also have a mind altering effect. Now it is whether or not a DUI was handed out.
I have studied this subject for almost 40 years, and it is amazing how the background of the person taking the position plays out in the final conclusion!
I have friends in pretty much every language group in Europe, from Greek to Serbo Croatian, and none of them would argue that “wine” should always translate as grape juice. None of them would argue that when Jesus changed water into wine that it was freshly squeezed grape juice.
None of them would argue that the accusation against Jesus as a “wine drinker” means that he was only in the company of such.
And if Paul suggests to Timothy that he should not only drink water, but also some wine for his stomach sake, all arguments stating that the drinking of wine “for any reason…” is sinful. Can you imagine Paul telling Timothy to sin? According to your case, that would be exactly what he was doing.”If not, then drinking it as grape juice (or non-intoxicating wine) in any amount is excessive, sinful and wrong…”
If drinking wine is sinful, then the reason makes no difference!
Rudy you are right on point! They do not see because they are blind from the law. The law blinds.
Thank you, James…
Alcohol is a highly addictive and troublesome substance to about 1 billion people in the world James. Has nothing to do with being blinded by the law, but rather moved by compassion, like Jesus. Romans 14, and 15:1, instruct the believer how we should act toward the addicted weaker brother, sister, child…
once again, Romans 14 was not written with the addicted in mind, SeattleBruce. It has a far broader context…
Moved by compassion includes many forms of behavior. These forms only have an impact on my personal life in the choice I make as far as dinner guests go. I have no problem with having dinner with like-minded people. Would I invite my friend who is struggling with alcoholism? Of course not! Nor would I invite my vegan minded friend to a steak dinner.
You keep confusing responsible behavior with what the Biblical text states.
Rudy,
Likewise, I can’t help but notice the “pick ‘n choose work” most purveyors of the “drugs in moderation” doctrine use, when it doesn’t fit their preconceived notions. Like Lev. 10:9, where priests who drank wine or “strong drink” were to be put to death. Or Num. 28:7-8, where this “strong drink” was to be poured out as an offering unto the Lord. There is nothing in Deut. 14:26 that necessarily implies authorization of the casual consumption of strong drink. But there is plenty of evidence elsewhere that says those who do engage in such behavior are foolish (Prov. 20:1; 23:29-35).
You wrote, “None of the group of Gary et al has defended drunkenness…”
This is amusing in a way … I never made that accusation. What I did write was, “A few on this thread (Gary Meier, et al.) have attempted to say God approves of intoxicating wine as long as one is not getting drunk.” Now, how can anyone reason (?) from that statement you’ve “defended drunkenness”? What I said in essence was, that is where your logic leads. Whether you believe it or not.
As for your first three questions — “Have you ever read” a news article for someone being ticketed for driving under the influence of chocolate, caffeine and ketchup? I await your response, though I won’t hold my breath in so doing.
In addition, “Have you ever read” Rom. 12:2. where the word of God has the power to transform or “alter the mind” unto the striving of the faith of the gospel (1 Cor. 2:16; Phil. 1:27)? So I’m not sure what point you’re attempting to make with these inquiries.
What I did notice is, a) you’ve haven’t logically contradicted anything in my first with your response, b) you’ve attributed arguments where none were made and c) failed to answer any of the questions I presented. Which is sadly typical of those which defend the casual or social use of mind altering drugs.
I guess the purpose of balance does not mean anything to you. You have come to the passages with your mind made up, and who cares what the evidence shows.
You remind me of the first missionaries of the Church of Christ I met, decades ago. The message was against smoking, drinking, dancing and mixed swimming.
And yet, when I spent two years in the U.S., I could not believe the number of smoking elders, taking a quick smoke between Bible study and the service, leaning up against the building!
I went to college in a town in a “dry” county, and many Christians spoke out against drinking – but smoked.
That, and the number or preachers who were obese, and proud of it! “I carry a lot of weight in the brotherhood…” was an oft heard (and laughed about) saying.
What Gary, others and I are trying to get across, that the condemnation of those who drink any alcoholic beverage are sinners of he worst kind is not Biblical. The argument that “wine” is grape juice when Jesus drank it, is wrong on both linguistic and exegetical grounds.
You referred to the “mind altering” quality of alcohol. I used a number of other substances that have the same effect. Whether or not the police tickets anyone for that does not matter.
Back to Deut 14. The text, “And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household…”
You SHALL – is a command. The use is not only implied, it is commanded. the same as when the text says, “You shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.” and the rest of the text.
So, when God commands (and there is no way you can get around that), your argument ends up being with God.
As far as the questions, I am sorry, but I did not have the time to replace the subject with “overeating” but hopefully, you get the point. It is amazing to me how people on this list find all sorts of excuses for overeating, but do not deal with the risks.
Years ago, I knew a couple. The husband was over 300 pounds, and his wife was worried sick about him dropping dead of a heart attack. I went to school with an amazing man, who weighed 345 pounds. He lost consciousness one day, and it took 8 of us to carry him downstairs. The last time I visited with him, he was dying of diabetes, and bewailing the fact that he did not listen to his wife and kids when they begged him to lose weight. Never drank a glass of wine – but ate himself to death.I wish those who argue against drinking a glass of wine now and then would argue as strongly against the dangers of obesity.
But there again, it is a balanced approach to Scripture. Is it good to eat? Yes! But gluttony is a sin – no matter what excuse you use. And yes,too much food (CAPS FOR EMPHASIS) – KILLS PEOPLE EVERY DAY! You might find it surprising that there are more food related health problems killing people than alcohol problems.
Your next move: Comparing the moderate use of alcohol with drugs. Really? If that indeed is what concerns you, I assume that you refuse painkillers when you get a tooth pulled? I had a quadruple bypass almost 2 years ago. And you bet I gladly accepted the painkillers when thy sent me home. But after two days, I tossed what was left because I knew they were addictive. Did i still have pain? Sure. The first few days they were helpful. And believe me, they WERE mind-altering!
Balance – and approaching all of Scripture, rather than picking an choosing.
An estimated 300,000 deaths per year are due to the obesity epidemic (2010)
Excessive alcohol use led to approximately 88,000 death (2016)
Now, tell me again where the bigger problem lies: Eating too much, or drinking too much???
BEFORE you accuse me of arguing that, since the number of deaths is lower, therefore it is okay to drink alcoholic beverages, no, that s not the argument. What I hope to show, is that the defense of the necessity of food really does not work.
And again, there is the balance: Don’t overeat, don’t overdrink (I know, not a word, but who cares, you get the picture, I hope).