Supposedly, good people go to Heaven, and most people believe that they are good and that they are going to Heaven. Why would anyone need Jesus? We are confident in our goodness despite our consciences convicting us of right and wrong. We feel guilt, shame, and regret for what we have done. We have all lied, stole, slandered, cursed someone, hated, and lusted for someone we should not. Are we innocent or guilty? Our consciences tell us that we are guilty but we all want to be free of such condemnation.
Sometimes, we console ourselves by saying that society’s standards make us feel guilty. Unless we have become morally callous, we should all feel guilty even if society approves of child abuse or trafficking of the innocent. Society cannot be the standard for moral right and wrong. Society did not give us our conscience. They have no right to tell us what is good and what is evil. We all have rights. We know that those who violate our rights are doing evil. Our consciences and our pursuit of our rights show constant proof of a standard of right and wrong.
The Origin of Virtue
Virtue was not invented by people but rather existed before people. From where would virtue have begun? Virtue is constant and has always been. The only other options for the origin of virtue that it comes from nothing or it came from people, which cannot be that something come from nothing or virtue from contradicting societies.
We are confident that the existence of virtue implies purpose. There is a purpose to life. Virtue presents justice as justice is essential to maintain human rights. There will be justice and there must be a judgment for the guilty. How can there be judgment without there being a just and virtuous Judge? However, we are all guilty great or low. We are often confused over what is right and wrong since people contradict each other. We are constantly convicted by our consciences to know what is good and evil by an innate sense of judgment upon us. From what we do know, we know that we all have guilt, shame, and regret.
How Does Jesus Help
This brings us to our question. Who needs Jesus? What’s the point? What does Jesus offer to understand right and wrong? What virtues does Jesus bring? Does Jesus bring justice to the guilty? Where are the greatest and purest morals? We can consider the morals of many. Among these is Jesus. We must admit that His teachings stand out among the many. He was the first to say, “It is more blessed to give than to receive” (Acts 20:35), “And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise” (Luke 6:31), “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends” (John 15:13), and much more (Matt 5:39–42, 44; 6:19, 21, 25; 15:18–20; Luke 6:37; 14:12–13; John 7:24; 13:34–35). His virtues bring much clarity on whether we really want to accept Jesus or not. In all of this, we are confident that there must be mercy, but not a mercy from those who keep doing evil and not a mercy made up by society. Therefore, we either neglect a search for truth with mercy, half-heartedly take in what we can, or we diligently pursue mercy among all the morality that we can gather.
The Words of Jesus
We cannot escape the words of Jesus of Nazareth. His words weigh on the hearts of those who know them. Some people scoff at him and most neglect him. The rest believe Jesus’s teachings and diligently seek mercy from the great Judge us all who Jesus refers to as His heavenly Father. By the evidence of a plurality of witnesses, we know whether history is true or whether someone is guilty of a crime. By this standard, the witnesses of Jesus’s life confirmed that Jesus lived, died, and resurrected. Jesus taught the highest and purest standard of morals that have ever been taught, but this teacher suffered persecution and died being nailed to a wooden cross. Then according to witnesses, they confirm that Jesus was innocent of all sin and was not worthy of the justice and condemnation of death, and thereby Jesus defeated death by being raised from the dead (Heb 2:14). Because of this, Jesus is the only way to eternal life in the new earth (John 14:6; Acts 4:12).
Jesus revealed that His words will judge the world on the last day (John 12:47–48). His words are spirit and life (John 6:63). Jesus gave these words to His Apostles who wrote them in the Bible and His words will never pass away (John 15:20; 17:8; cf. Matt 24:35). Jesus’s apostles and prophets wrote His words so that you can know that you have eternal life and so that you can be complete and equipped to do every good work (1 John 5:13; 2 Tim 3:16–17). Jesus showed that our own good deeds cannot save us and get us into the eternal kingdom of the heavenly country (Eph 2:8–9). Christ is the author of salvation to all those who obey Him (Heb 5:9).
Meaning, Purpose, and Judgment
The problem with believing that good people go to heaven by being good is that they believe that they are good apart from Jesus Christ and this makes Jesus’s life and death meaningless and void. In doing this, we would disregard our own guilt. Jesus also taught that man and woman were created in the image of God (Matt 19:4; cf. Gen 1:26–27). Jesus’s words teach that God is love (1 John 4:8, 16; cf. 1 Cor 13:13). This indicates that humankind was created in God’s image with the purpose to love. This also indicates that to do evil is to act without love, which is how people are guilty and thus we offend God (1 Cor 13:1–3). Therefore, Jesus is right to say that if we love God, then we will obey His commands (John 14:21, 23–24).
Jesus’s words teach that one day everyone will be judged by God for what they have done (Rev 22:12; cf. 2 Cor 5:10). Jesus also taught that there are only two destinations for the innocent and the guilty: eternal life and eternal punishment (Matt 25:34, 41, 46). All are guilty including good people. All have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory (Rom 3:23; 5:12). All are condemned having earned spiritual death (Rom 5:16–18; 6:23; cf. John 3:18–21). However, there is good news for the guilty.
The Good News
How can we be saved through Jesus’s death and resurrection? Jesus’s words teach you to believe and confess that He is the resurrected Lord and God (Rom 10:9–10; cf. John 1:1, 14; 8:24, 58). Jesus taught, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven” (Matt 7:21). There is more to being saved than confessing Christ as “Lord.” Jesus teaches that one who loves Him will keep His commands (John 14:21, 23–24). Jesus’s words teach the necessity for you to change your mind to stop practicing sin (repent) and be immersed (baptized) in water in Jesus’s name to wash away your sins (Acts 2:38; 22:16). Jesus revealed, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mark 16:16). Know that there is only one baptism to obey, which is to be immersed in water (Acts 10:47–48; Eph 4:5; 5:26). With obedience, people are saved by the Gospel: the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor 15:1–4; 2 Thess 1:7–9). One obeys the Gospel by re-enacting it by dying to sins, being buried in baptism, and being resurrected to a new life (Rom 6:4–6; Col 2:12–13). Is this the Gospel that you obeyed? “Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins” (Acts 22:16).
By baptism, one is added to the church of Jesus Christ (1 Cor 12:13). The church is Christ’s people and community. Christ saved, built, and bought with His blood the one Church (Matt 16:18; Eph 1:22–23; 4:4; 5:23–26; cf. Acts 20:28). After baptism, one must walk in the light that the blood of Christ washes away sins (1 John 1:7). Walking in the light is to obey God’s commands in love (1 John 2:3–6). His commands include reading the Bible, praying, and going to the meetings of the church of Christ (Phil. 4:6–7; 1 Tim 4:13; Heb 10:25). The truth is that God wants everyone to know the truth and be saved (1 Tim 2:4), so be aware of many who knowingly or unknowingly perverts the gospel of Christ for they are accursed (Matt 7:15–20; Gal 1:6–12).
The Breath of God 
I do not mean to minimize the importance of water baptism. It is a very important work and should be done as soon as possible after the person has been believed and been saved. It should be observed, but baptism along with other works are only a product of the faith we are saved through.
But they teach one has eternal life at the point of belief. So must one be baptized and do other work in order to beleive?
If Christ told us to believe and nothing else to be saved, then I would agree very much agree with Joe, but the Scriptures teach the necessity of belief, confession, repentance, and obedience to the Gospel meaning death to sins and burial by baptism into Christ’s death for salvation (Rom. 10:9-10, Rom. 6:1-8). None of these can earn salvation.
thanks for the comment, braden. I’d agree with you 100% on what you have said. I think you might misunderstand what ive said though, which is understandable theres a lot of dialog that has been exchanged between scott and me. It would be easy to miss something.
The point of contention between Scott and I is that the bible says we are justified by faith… saved by grace… and the moment one beleives HAS eternal life. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life”
Scott is saying that one does not have eternal life when they believe but once they are baptized. So, we have two options here: either one must be baptized in order to believe (which i think scott has already denied) or baptism is not required to be saved.
Joe, I think you completely misunderstand Scott on the topic of works. He’s not advocating a works salvation or anything of the kind.
However, if you read James 2, it’s obvious that works are the fruits of an active faith. To separate works from faith would rob faith of one of the few days it can be displayed.
Joe,
Most of your errors have already been refuted. The following are some new things that you bring up or avoid.
You affirm that obedience is doing works which is “work-salvation”, and that Christ is only the author of salvation to all those who obey Him (Heb. 5:9). This is clearly a contradiction.
The soldier on the battlefield will be saved when he is baptized. He’s had the just amount of time that God gives. If the same soldier believed in God and Christ but did not believe the resurrection though he would when he got back to the base and talked to the chaplain, would he be saved if he died before then? No, “believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved”. Anyone who dies on their way to salvation will be judged by God justly whether their faith is not complete in believing the resurrection or obedience to Christ in baptism. The very scenario that God would allow someone would have faith and desire baptism, and then be killed before he does so is against God’s providence and it is not plausible unless the soldier had numerous chances before to be baptized and did not. This is clearly presented with my scenario of lacking faith in the resurrection.
Follow the passage: “Where is boasting then?” The answer is “it is excluded”. It is excluded in that I cannot boast in the works of the Law. In this, we agree. Next, new question “By what law? of works?” or in other words, “Where is the boasting then…by why law? of work?”. The answers is “No,” it is not of the Law or of its works, “but by the law of faith”. See the boasting is “by the law of faith” and not in the law of Moses or its works. Boasting is not excluded for boasting by the law of faith. You should know since you boast of saving faith though without works. Is baptism of the law of faith or of the law of Moses? Clearly, it is of the law of faith (Rom. 6), so if I boast “by the law of faith” in baptism, then you think I’m wrong. None of this is hard to understand by those who are honest with Scripture.
Have you been baptized as Acts 2:38 presents?
“There are necessary acts of obedience (”works”) needed to be saved…”
I understand exactly what you mean right there. And this is not what the bible teaches. The bible teaches we are justified by faith, not acts of faith, but the faith itself.
I dont know why you put (“works.”) As if acts of obedience are not works. They certainly are and you said in other responses to me that one must be baptized to be saved. and that baptism was a work.
I think the only reason you are doing this is to lump baptism on as a condition to receiving salvation and you cant call it a work in the face of EPH 2:8 and ROM 4
“If someone dies a week after being immersed into Christ, then he is saved even with few works as a Christian.”
Here is the problem again, you have many (“works”) one must do to lead to salvation but one can be saved as long as they are baptized. So the only saving work is actually baptism. What if a soldier believes on the line of combat but is killed before being baptized? Of course he would be saved whosoever beleiveth on the son hath everlasting life. Just like the theif on the cross, he was not baptized after he beleived on the cross and we were assured by Jesus that he was saved.
I may not understand many things the “church of christ” teaches but i do recognize works based salvation.
You said, ““We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.” The glorying is in “the law of faith”. Baptism is an act of obedience (work) of the law of faith and not of the Law of Moses.”
Paul said, “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.”
So, let me get this strait- the law of faith contains works? How then is boasting excluded? Limiting works to the OT law of moses may be a quick fix but this doesnt make any sense to the overall context of what paul is saying.
You do not understand any of the beliefs that the Church of Jesus Christ holds. There are necessary acts of obedience (“works”) needed to be saved and there are necessary acts of faith after salvation to hold to faith. This is probably where you are stumbling in your indoctrination with the idea that one cannot fall from grace though the Scriptures teach otherwise (Gal. 5:4, Heb. 6:4-6, and more).
As I presented before, there are acts of obedience that lead unto salvation that is to be resurrected with Christ. One must believe and confess Christ as the risen Lord to be saved (Rom. 10:9-10). To believe and confess, one must first hear the Word (Rom. 10:17). We are saved in obeying the Gospel (1 Cor. 15:2, 2 Thes. 1:7-9). This obedience is clearly presented in Romans unto the Resurrection is to die to sins, be buried with Christ in baptism, and then we are resurrected (Rom. 6:1-9). After being baptized, one should continue in the faith with works (James 2) such as meeting with the church, reading, praying, and all the works of faith. You misunderstand that these goods deeds lead to salvation. You don’t have to do all of them to go to Heaven. If someone dies a week after being immersed into Christ, then he is saved even with few works as a Christian.
Romans 5:8, “But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.” See we are saved when we obey Christ (Heb. 5:9) as you have affirmed yourself already.
Ephesians 2:8-10 shows clearly that after being saved we are to walk in that faith. To keep our salvation we must walk in the light (1 John 1:7). You still struggle in accepting this Scripture.
“They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he has sent.” Faith is a work (John 6:29, 1 Thes. 1:3). As the Scripture presents that it is something that faith is a work of God that we do. Everything that one does is a work. I know that you believe that you must do something to be saved by Christ and that is to believe, but as the Scriptures present, you must also confess Jesus, repent, and be baptized in His name for Christ to save you. See, there is no one trying to save their own selves apart from Christ in this. You know as well as I do that you must work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12). In the phrase “you must work”, the verb “work” is the same as the noun “work”. Who does the work? You do. You believe that obeying God is not a work. “Please.” You’re arrogance and pride is against God. Should everyone not obey God in baptism unto the forgiveness of sins? Again, you avoid telling me what is a work. The only work you have presented is Christ’s baptism for his disciples. Name some other works like circumcision. Is that the only other one?
Are you attacking Christ’s Church in mocking His Church’s obedience to baptism? Are you not afraid of the judgment of God? We say we trust Christ to save us, and you say that we don’t as though you can judge our hearts. We say that we are not saved by our own works but by obeying the Gospel then we are saved by Christ, and you say that we don’t believe this. Do you know our own minds? You do not even know the Scriptures. Now, do you believe that God comes out of a spigot because we do not? Set your mind at ease. We don’t baptize in just bathtubs, but in all bodies of water all over the world. Isn’t this what Christ commanded in Matthew 28:19-20?
Only those who are in the Church and have obeyed the Gospel go to Heaven (1 Pet. 4:17, Eph. 5:23-26). How did you enter the Church by faith or baptism? What does 1 Cor. 12:13 teach?
You err in believing that committing one sin then we step out into darkness unto damnation. Regarding 1 John 1:7, it is clear that as long as one walks in the light then Christ cleanses them. Step out of the light and you are lost (v6). Now see, that even though one is walking in the light, we still sin (v8). You have to walk in darkness to be lost (v6). Why are you so eager to call me a liar?
You ask how Paul says Romans 4:5. The Scriptures show that the one who works not the works of the Law of Moses is justified. With this, I agree with Scripture. “We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.” The glorying is in “the law of faith”. Baptism is an act of obedience (work) of the law of faith and not of the Law of Moses.
I affirmed before that there are more there is more than one baptism, but only one for everyone.
I’ve taught a few “Baptist” students. One went to his minister, asked to be immersion unto the forgiveness of sins, and the Baptist minister did so at the First Baptist Church in downtown Montgomery, AL. This was just 2 years ago. Add to that 7 other Baptists who did likewise, and Christ washed away their sins in that burial. These 8 and a few others have also seen the Truth, but you won’t.
Do you have any “work of faith” (1 Thes. 1:3)? “Do not work for the food that perishes, but for that food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you. For God the Father sealed Him.”
May you see the grace and peace that is in Christ.
you are still trying to maintain that there is only one baptism, water baptism. But the scripture plainly teaches there are doctrine of baptisms (more than one) in HEb 6:2
Here is what you are failing to understand. I have nothing against good works. But they follow after salvation. We do not work to be saved, we work because we are saved. The works i do, including baptism, I do because I love God because He loved me first.(1jn4:19) and God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8) So God loved us and was willing to die for us sinners but you are saying he is not willing to save the sinners he died for while they are yet sinners. You say in order to be saved we first have to “stop sinning”, then we have to read our bibles, pray, get baptized, help little old ladies accross the street, join the church, take communion, and live good.
This is precisely what paul is against. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. EPH 2:8,9
And this is not only reffering to the law of moses like you are trying to limit it, it is reffering to all good works:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. EPH 2:10
Simply choosing to put your faith in what Jesus did for us is not work. If you can not understand how inward, intangible repentance and belief is not work and not understand how a symbolic, outward ritual performed by men is work I’m afraid I can not help you.
The “church of christ” does not trust christ as a payment for sins. they beleive trusting in Jeusus isnt enough and they have to help Jesus save people by dunking them in their bathtub. Because God only comes out of their spigot. This is THE DEFINITION OF WORKS SALVATION.
If belief/faith is a work how can paul say:
“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
Paul does not say the works of his faith are counted as righteousness. His faith itself is counted as righteousness. You cited many passages that say if we obey then we will be saved, and if we walk in the light we will be saved, however, you admit that you have sinned since being baptized and you were not walking in the light when you did that. So are you saved? I am not intentionally misunderstanding you, Im just trying to get you to see the inconsistency in your belief.
What is a work to me? What on earth ISN’T a work to you? you have stipulated that baptism, joining church, walking in the light, confessing sins to God, OBEYING HIS COMMANDMENTS (all of them?)are among some of the things we must do to be saved. If we are not saved by good works like Paul says in Rom and Eph then none of those can be work. Keeping obeying his commandments are not work? Please.
Now like i said, im not against any of this but I am against the apostasy of doing this for ones salvation.
IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT YOU ARE WRONG. you said, “Faith is a work.” But the bible says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
you also said, “Still, as you proclaim, that you have a faith without works like the demons who also have such a dead faith” I never said this. Like i said i work, but not for my salvation i work because of my salvation. Faith produces work, but we are not saved by “the work of our faith” we are saved through the faith itself not of works lest any man should boast as the “chruch of christ” does.
“That sounds like works salvation in that you will salvation from God just because you believe in Christ and that He’ll save you.” This is because your ideas about biblical works are so warped from the teaching of the “c.o.c” that you want to make everything a work or nothing a work. Belief is not a work, I have proven this time after time in my posts from scripture but you will not answer any of them.