Are Christian women neglecting the command for head-coverings in church? Some consider this section of Scripture as completely cultural and identify all parts as the custom of contention (1 Cor 11:16). However, Christians cannot avoid that the apostle Paul commanded that Christians must maintain tradition just as delivered to them (1 Cor 11:2). Many believe that 1 Corinthians 11 teaches that women must wear cloth coverings hanging over their heads when practicing their faith around men. The interpretations of this passage vary among believers concerning whether the covering is spiritual, garment, or hair. This study draws observations from the Scriptures with consideration of historical background.
Covering and Glory
Long hair is the only covering that Paul specifically mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11. However, some women may not have long hair and need another covering. The text reveals, “But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering” (1 Cor 11:15). Verses 6 and 7 use the Greek word katakalupto, which literally means “to cover downward” (Gingrich and Danker’s lexicon, BDAG). A woman’s head being uncovered was the same personal shame as having her hair sheared or shaved (1 Cor 11:4–6).
Starting from verse 4, this passage is about what will personally shame the woman’s head. Verse 5 indicates that a personal shame for a woman to shear or shave her head. As other scriptures explain, the woman who elaborately arranged her hair uncovered her head and disregarded her God-given glory and God’s headship. Having long hair is a God-given glory to the woman (1 Cor 11:15). The Scriptures teach that the Christian woman should cover her head in subordination to God’s order of headship and thereby glorify God, Christ, and man (1 Cor 11:3–6). God made male and female in His image and yet He has given each a different glory. “Woman is the glory of man” because man is the “glory of God” (1 Cor 11:7).
Humility, Modesty, and Hair
The woman who washed Jesus’s feet demonstrated how a woman letting her hair down was an act of humility (Luke 7:36–50; cf. Matt 28:9). Lazarus’s sister, Mary of Bethany, demonstrated humility by wiping Jesus’s feet with her hair and anointing him with oil in preparation for his burial (John 12:1–8). In the Journal of Biblical Literature, Charles Cosgrove cited numerous ancient sources depicting how women let their hair down as an act of humility within the Greco-Roman and Jewish societies.[1]
Both Paul and Peter instructed modesty and humility among women in 1 Corinthians 11. In 1 Peter 3:1–6, Peter also applied caution to the external decorating of hair and clothing where a woman’s adornment must exist within her heart. Peter explained, “Your adornment must not be merely external — braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God” (1 Pet 3:3–4 NASB). The braiding of hair appears to mean putting up the hair against the head rather than hanging and covering the head. This practice of braiding with gold and peals demonstrated a lack of humility and modesty.
In Backgrounds of Early Christianity, Ferguson noted,
Portrait sculpture of the Flavian period gives specificity to the type of hairstyles and jewelry forbidden in 1 Timothy 2:9 and 1 Peter 3:3. The braiding of the hair was very elaborate and ostentatious, quite unlike the simple braid of modern times. The items mentioned in the biblical texts were characteristic of the wealthy upper classes and those who imitated them.[2]
God also instructed the Christian women in 1 Timothy 2:9–10, “Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided [woven] hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.” The apostle Paul described elaborately adorned hair as immodest, insubordinate, and not proper for a woman’s claim to godliness. The immodest women in the church at Corinth most probably had put their hair up and probably elaborately adorned their hair woven with gold and pearls demonstrating immodesty, wealth, and authority that was not proper in the church.[3]
Headship and Head-Covering
By not letting their hair hang down, women dishonored God’s headship by dishonoring the man who is head of woman. This headship is not dominance of one over another, but this is like God’s headship to Christ and Christ’s headship to man. Headship implied servant leadership (Mark 10:42–45). Christ led by service, and so men are to lead women by service. By elaborately braiding and adorning hair with gold and pearls, women behaved or appeared as wealthy and immodest, and thus some women exercised authority over men. Thereby, they appeared to reject the man’s God-given instruction to lead and teach because God created man first for this purpose (1 Tim 2:13–14; cf. 1 Cor 11:3, 7–9).
In the Greco-Roman world, the custom for powerful women of authority was to braid their hair with gold and pearls and dress as though higher than others. Pagan women in this time led worship to Diana and Dionysus, and thus women exercised power and influence through the cults.[4] Among the churches, some women arranged and adorned their hair with gold and pearls, and they did not let their long hair hang down to show the God-given glory of woman and the glory of man in woman (1 Cor 11:7, 15). The apostles taught that a woman’s hair was to demonstrate modesty and humility to glorify her God-given glory of man and God’s headship. However, the shame of a woman cutting her hair short was her personal shame. The Greek word for this “shame” is kataischuno appearing in verses 4 and 5, and this word specifically refers to a personal shame or humiliation among people. This word also appears in 1 Corinthians 11:22 where those who partook of the Lord’s Supper without waiting for other Christians were trying to humiliate and shame them (cf. 1 Cor 1:27).
Custom and Contention
The context of 1 Corinthians 11 is that a Christian is not to offend another’s conscience with one’s liberty (1 Cor 10:23–33). The message is a matter of modesty between men and women under the headship of God and Christ. Christian women must display Godly principles of modesty and humility even in dress. Women are not to shame their heads with claims of authority or shame of cutting her hair short. These Scriptures guide Christians to present God’s headship as God is head of Christ, Christ is head of man, and man is head of woman. Christians should remain considerate of demonstrating humility and modesty.
Because of contention, the apostle Paul affirmed that the churches of God have no such custom of women praying with their heads uncovered (1 Cor 11:13–16). Christians must avoid contention over customs. In 1 Corinthians 11:13, Paul expressed, “Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?” (NASB). The use of the word “proper” indicates whatever is for modesty and to respect authority. That same Greek word for “proper” also appears in 1 Timothy 2 to a related matter. In 1 Timothy 2:10, Paul revealed what is proper that Christian women are to adorn themselves with good works “as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.” The translators interpret “proper” from the Greek word prepo meaning “becoming,” “appropriate,” or “fitting” (Matt 3:15; Eph 5:3; Titus 2:1; Heb 2:10; 7:26). Therefore, these Christian women were to pray with their hair hanging to cover their heads as is proper and fitting for demonstrating the headship that God established. In this setting, these Christian women were to allow their hair to hang down in humility because long hair is a God-given covering and glory. In other words, women are to maintain feminine appearance especially in how they keep their hair.
Nature reveals that men and women differ in their pattern of hair. The apostle Paul exhorted, “Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering” (1 Cor 11:13–15). The apostle Paul observed that long hair for a man and cropped hair for a woman is a “disgrace” according to nature. Nature as God’s created order affects customs and culture despite society’s resistance.
Coffman’s Commentary
Furthermore, consider the insight of James B Coffman who comments upon a woman’s hair as her covering:
Verse 4
Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoreth his head.
Having his head covered…
Here is where the misunderstanding of this passage begins. This clause, as rendered in the popular versions, is commentary, not Bible. As Echols noted:
“Having his head covered” is a commentary, not a translation. Lenski translated the sense correctly: “having something down from his head.” What the “something” is is neither stated nor implied in 1 Corinthians 11:4.
The logical understanding of this would refer it to “long hair,” being long enough to hang down from the head, as clearly indicated by the apostles’ words a moment later: “If a man have long hair, it is a dishonor to him” (1 Corinthians 11:14).
The ancients accepted Paul’s dictum on this and went so far as to define the length of hair that was considered an infraction of Paul’s words.
“The hair of the head may not grow so long as to come down and interfere with the eyes … cropping is to be adopted … let not twisted locks hang far down from the head, gliding into womanish ringlets.”
Significantly, the words “hang far down” strongly resemble Paul’s words “having something down from his head.” The above is from Clement of Alexandria and was written in the second century.[5]
However, some may ask about verses 5–6. These verses seem to imply that not covering with a garment is like a woman’s hair being sheared or shaved. Paul is simply affirming that short hair and hair drawn up on the head is the same as a cropped or shaved head. A literal translation is:
Every woman praying or prophesying with head uncovered disgraces her head; for this is also one and the same as being shaved. For if the woman is not covered, she must also become sheared; and if this is a disgrace to the woman to become sheared or shaved, she must remain covered. (1 Cor 11:5–6)
Coffman noted,
If Paul meant “hair,” why did he use the word “covered”? The answer is that in the vocabulary of the Old Testament “to uncover the head” was to shave off the hair. When Nadab and Abihu sinned (Leviticus 10:1ff), God commanded Aaron not to “uncover his head” in mourning at their death; and this meant not to cut off his hair (the customary sign of mourning). Job shaved his head when he learned his children were dead (Job 1:20). Many examples of this usage could be cited.[6]
“If it is a shame to a woman to be cropped or shaven, let her be covered” in verse 6 clearly refers to a covering of hair as seen in 1 Corinthians 11:15, “And if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her long hair is given to her for a covering.”
Because of the Angels
What about verse 10’s reference to angels: “because of the angels”? Verse 10 is referring to authority. This scripture shows how women should have authority on their heads. The woman who prophesies also receives revelation from God through angels to prophesy and angels also deliver prayers (Heb 2:2; Rev 1:1; 8:3–4). This instruction has to do with the woman’s service in prayer and teaching before God. She is to serve with apparent respect and modesty. Therefore, “every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered dishonors her head” (1 Cor 11:5).
By not covering her head, the Christian woman dishonors herself being that God created her as the glory of man and in the image of God. Paul revealed, “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God” (1 Cor 11:3). The woman is subordinating to the man by her modesty and covering. Her hair hanging down is her glory for she is the glory of man. This is how the Christian woman honors the headship of God, Christ, and man.
[Last edited June 28, 2021]
BIBLIOGRAPHY
- Charles Cosgrove, “A Woman’s Unbound Hair,” JBL 124 (2005): 675–92.
- Everett Ferguson, Backgrounds of Early Christianity, (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2003) 97.”
- Ferguson reported, “In which cultures in the first centuries women wore veils in public, in what numbers, and with what significance are not perfectly clear now. Jewish sources rather uniformly call for women to be veiled in public, but Greek and Roman sources are mixed in their evidence. In classical Greece the veil was worn outside the house by women who had reached sexual maturity — married and young women of marriageable age, and Jewish sources may be read the same way. In depictions in a Greek wedding, the bride lifts her veil to her husband. A Roman woman on her wedding day was a given a red veil. Statuary makes clear that the Greco-Roman veil was the top of the garment pulled over the head; one should not think of the modern Arabic and Islamic veil that covers most of the face as well as the head. In Roman religion the men as well as women were veiled when offering a sacrifice. The Jewish custom for men to cover their heads when praying and studying the law is later than New Testament times” (97).
- Bruce Morton, Deceiving Winds, (Nashville: 21st Century Christian, 2009).
- James Burton Coffman, “Commentary on 1 Corinthians 11.” Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament, <www.studylight.org/commentaries/bcc/1-corinthians-11.html> (Abilene Christian University Press, Abilene, TX) 1983-1999.
- Ibid.
- Coffman perceived, “With her head unveiled…
The word here rendered ‘unveiled’ is [Greek: akatakaluptos]. ‘There is no intrinsic meaning in this word which suggests either the covering material or the object covered; it is simply a general word.’ (See under 1 Corinthians 11:15.) Only in 1 Cor. 11:15 does Paul mention any kind of garment ([Greek: peribolaion]) and even there he stated that the woman’s hair took the place of it. [Katakaluptos] means covered completely. [Akatakaluptos] means not completely covered. Thus again, the passage falls short of mentioning any kind of garment. To suppose that Paul here meant ‘mantle’ or ‘veil’ or any such thing is to import into this text what is not in it. We have seen that he was speaking of ‘hair’ in 1 Cor. 11:4; and that is exactly what he is speaking of here. ‘Not completely covered’ would then refer to the disgraceful conduct of the Corinthian women in cropping their hair, after the manner of the notorious Corinthian prostitutes; which, if they did it, was exactly the same kind of disgrace as if they had shaved their heads. It is crystal clear that Paul is not speaking of any kind of garment; because he said in 1 Cor. 11:15, below, ‘For her hair is given her instead of a covering.'”
The Breath of God 
Michael. You do NOT have one standard for truth. You have Gods Spirit in you. It is a source if truth that you assume is not accessable to you. Again, many scriptures to support Gods indwelling as a Source for truth. If you want to get into a scriptural discussion I will be glad to do so
Michael, how is it possible for so many different religions to be formed from the same Biblical text? If you believe and understand the bible then how can you say, ” We are not transformed by the direct work of the Holy Spirit, but by the word which the Holy Spirit revealed. “??? Nothing could be further from the truth, and the Bible nowhere states such!
John 15:4,5
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
Nothing here says anything about his words dwelling in the Christian. Again Romans 8 says nothing about his words dwelling in the Christian. Throughout scripture the direct connection to God is the key to relationship, not just a process of reading and obeying. You are missing the mystical connection to God that the NT so clearly states is the key to Christianity.
It’s so easy to become a mechanical Christian by reading and obeying commands because the NT says we should. What happen to the relationship that occurs when we are transformed by the renewing of our minds?
How can an illiterate or an intellectually challenged person be transformed if they can’t read or understand what they read? Your idealistic approach basically suggests that we all have equal ability to read and understand the text of the Bible.
You and Scott may be wired for intellectual and textual relationship with God. That’s between you and God. But my walk with God will be Spiritual, and this is between me and God.
You seem to fail to read and understand the spiritual aspects of NT Christianity that has God as the master of our lives through direct influence in our minds and hearts. Words have no power of their own because our minds are subjective, and the words are understood through filters we have accumulated from birth. Yet God’s Spirit is the direct unfiltered connection we have by his indwelling within our consciousness. The Bible supports everything I have said, yet the bible states that God put his laws on our minds and in our hearts as stated in Hebrews. I wish you and Scott understood this.
2 Corinthians 3:5
Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.
Good discussion. Phil God, Christ and the Holy Spirit all dwell in us by faith (Eph. 3:17). Without faith, I would have no awareness of God in me. We cannot separate faith from The Bible, for “…faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God” (Rom. 10:17). The apostles were led by the Holy Spirit and wrote Scripture which we read and understand and follow to do God’s will (Eph. 3:3-5). Those verses tells us that what we read we can understand and that the Holy Spirit revealed these words of faith to the holy apostles and prophets. Christ cannot dwell in our hearts apart from faith! The Scriptures command us to”… understand what the will of the Lord is” (Eph. 5:17). This understanding will come only through the study of God’s word (Acts 17:11; II Tim. 2:15). We are not transformed by the direct work of the Holy Spirit, but by the word which the Holy Spirit revealed. “…But be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God” (Rom. 12:2). I cannot prove anything outside of the standard and source of The Bible. The Bible itself claims to do for us everything that we could possibly need to serve Christ. “All (every) Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect [complete], thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (II Tim. 3:16,17). It is our duty to follow the inspired traditions delivered by the apostles of Christ who were simply finishing the work of delivering truth to the disciples (John 16:13). Jesus told His apostles, “teaching them to observe ALL THINGS whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matt. 28:20). The early church continued in the “apostles’ doctrine” which is the same as the doctrine of Christ (Acts 2:42). Paul said the apostles teachings are the “commandments of the Lord” (1 Cor. 14:37). It is not just a good thing to read and obey the New Testament, it is our duty (Matt. 7:21). But we do all of this with the attitude and understanding that when we’ve done all that we’ve been commanded, we are still unprofitable servants (Luke 17:10). Christ gets all the glory and credit. He makes salvation possible. We glorify him through our good works by doing those things which accompany salvation (Eph. 2:10; Heb. 6:9). Faith without its works is dead (James 2:14-26). We must accept and follow the CENI of the New Testament “For we walk by faith and not by sight” (II Cor. 5:7). Faith comes by hearing (or reading it) and hearing by THE WORD OF GOD” (Rom. 10:17). This is the only way men and women will ever acquire faith. When men point to another source for their guidance or walk of faith, they can prove nothing and only create an atmosphere of confusion for everyone concerned, and we know that God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33). Jesus is Lord and Lord of my life! I would not know this except that someone preached it to me from the word of God: “…How shall they believe in him of whom they have not hear? and how shall they hear without a preacher?” (Rom. 10:14). We will never agree on anything until we agree on the one standard–the word of God.
Very good points
I never answered you question, ” I was wondering how you ever learned about Commands, Examples and Necessary Inferences? Anyway, if you take them away, what do we have left?”
We have His Spirit within us to guide us. We do not need to refer the the text for everything we do to measure whether we got it right or wrong. We have spiritual instincts that serve us, and a conscience to guide us. Checklist theology is very dangerous and leads to dependency on our human intellect to analyze and dissect words to extract a meaning, and it reduces everything in the spiritual kingdom to logical conclusion, and steers us away from Him and keeps us attached to ourselves…as the one who achieves salvation through our obedience to CENI. I would suggest that any obedience that happen in me happens by His Spirit living in me, and not from my personal competence and my ability to read and obey.
The scriptures do tell us everything right from wrong (2 Ti 3.16-17). Are we not ready to give attention to read, exhortation, and doctrine for the salvation of souls (1 Ti 4.13-16)? The Spirit tells us to.
Scott, God’s Spirit within you can lead you to what is right. Are suggesting otherwise? Do you need the scriptures to tell you that it’s wrong to kill, steal, lie, etc? Really? Do you have no natural instincts toward what is right? Seriously?
If that is your perception of the need for scripture, then you are certainly shortsighted. Certainly, every person has the innate ability to obtain some of the light, but not all (Ro 2.14-16). Why then did the Apostles give commands? Why did the Apostles reinforce what is right and wrong? They are an authority against those who corrupt. The Apostles were led by the Spirit to do this (Jn 16.12-13, Ep 3.3-5). Paul told us to read to understand the Spirit’s revelation. Add to all of this that the Scriptures increase our faith, hope, and love, so that we do love Christ with all of heart, mind, soul, and strength.
What was the purpose of law? It was put into effect to control behavior until the promised seed had come.
Why was Paul frustrated with the Galatians? Because Christ had not yet been formed in the.
Christianity has two levels of servitude. One is where you are the one in charge of your personal behavior and your personal ability to read, comprehend and carry out what you know as Gods will for you as instructed by the Bible. However, the NT also speaks of a new level of relationship in which you have died to yourself and Christ has been awakened in your consciousness to become the master of your life by His Spirit in you. This is the level of Christianity that you don’t believe in, but the NT scriptures give much insight into this, but you don’t want to acknowledge this. Would you like me to show you, or is your mind made up that it doesn’t exist?
The Bible is like a hologram. There are messages that are obvious, the ones to which you adhere. And there are subtle messages that you refuse to see. That’s your choice, but please don’t invalidate those who choose to see it. I can show you, and there is no question that the subtle message is there and is for those who have ears to hear.
You can label me Gnostic, and I can label you legalistic. Who’s right and who’s wrong? I can prove my understanding and you can prove yours, both using the scriptures. I can’t prove anything that is my spiritual experience, and you can’t prove that your obedience comes from faith or fear.
Dear Phil
I see you trying desperately to create a sort of Christendom that is quite close to Gnosticism. I don’t mean to use this as a label, but as a mindset that is all but new. Irenaeus who was a personal disciple of a close fried of John (Polycarp) wrote five books on the Gnostics (Against Heresies – around 180 AD). As a matter of fact, your way of reasoning matches Gnostic reasoning quite closely.
Of course you will find many who think like you do, esp. among Evangelical Protestants. This is due to Luther and Calvin who both heavily built their theology on Augustin, who – as a former Manichaen – brought Gnostic concepts into the theology of the Western church in his debates with Pelagius. Some typical signs of Gnostic theology are:
the doctrine of predestination
the denial of free will
the total depravity of natural humans
The incapabilty of the flesh to do anything good
The conviction that indwelling grace/knowledge works perfection
The belittling of obeing literal commands
The belittling of sound doctrine and the Bible
The overemphasis on personal guidance by the Spirit
The belittling of baptism
Unconditional eternal security of the elect – “the Seed” saves anyhow
…
All of this is described in Irenaeus’ books on the Gnostics and all of this can be found in Mainstream Evangelical literature (authors like Walvoord and Chafer, Philipp Yancey, William MacDonald, Watchman Nee …).
Since we are currently struggling with similar issues here in Vienna, let me assure you, that the list I gave you is definitely not in line with the teachings of those who were co-workers with the Apostles (Ignatius, Clement, Hermas, Polycarp, Ep. of Barnabas, Didache). Either they seriously misunderstood Paul or the Gnostics did.
I’d rather be in line with the church of the early 2nd century than with the church of the 21st century.
As far as obeying God’s commands, we must do so from love. As far as examples, the Bible sets the defining examples. In any service of obedient training, the disciple obeys the commands and imitates following the example, the pattern of the master (1 Co 11.1, etc.). To critique, I do not know of any “necessary inferences” that are not examples defining commands. Yet, that matters little. Everyone who loves God obeys His commands as defined by Christ and His Spirit in the obedient found in scripture.
Scott, the NT is one of the Spirit not of the text. God’s Spirit dwells in you to lead you into what is right. If this is not true then please remove Romans 8 from your Bible.
The Bible was made for man, not man for the Bible. A mature Christian know what to do from what God has given the Christian who has become Spiritually awakened to Him. You seem to suggest that all we need to do is read the bible and do what it says. Your faith seems to be in the words more than the Spirit.
Michael, you said, ” Without faith, I would have no awareness of God in me.”
If you are aware of God in you then why can’t you live from this? Does God just live in you symbolically, but not as a direct influence and counselor? Just wondering!
I’d love to list all of the scriptures that state God directly interacts with us, but it would take up to much space. However, i will if you want.
A person who cannot read can be taught by hearing (Romans 10:17). I cannot know God’s will for me apart from His word. God does not talk to me, nudge me, but He does tell me to obey His word (Heb. 5:8,9). I have one standard for truth and that is the Bible. The reason we have so many differing groups who claim to be Christians is because they follow at least two standards, and in some cases, three. Most carry a Bible and hold to parts of it, but they also have their man-made creeds and trust in their feelings. Man’s doctrines make void worship (Matt. 15:9). One who trusts in mere urges and feelings is a fool (Pro. 28:26). The Bible says this, it did not originate with me. We will never agree on anything until we agree on God’s word as the single standard for truth (John 17:17; II Tim. 3:16,17).
Michael. Yes you can know Gods will for you without reading it. God says in Hebrews 8 that He will write his laws on your heart and mind. What dont you understand about this? Why are you resistant to God working directly in your heart when this is the essence of NT Christianity? You remind me so much of the Galatians who were just as resistant to the HS as you . You yourself dont hold to the spiritual part of the bible that is so obvious it cant be ignored and yet you call others for their shortcomings on the bible I see lots of biblical issues that you ignore and can easily point them out and already have.
You say others are trustng theirbfeelings without knowing the difference WVbetween a feeling and an understanding. Do you know the difference? Please explain the difference between a feeling and an understanding
Lots to consider here.
Asbanar. You are entitled to your opinion but have proved nothing. If believing that God works directly in us by his Spirit is Gnostic then im gostic. But its ridiculous. Nothing you say is fact. Just perception. Ive asked several here to address romans 8 and no obe has respinded. I may have said romans 7 accidently
Basnar, this is also in response to your post. You listed the principles that define Gnosticism as:
the doctrine of predestination (I dont believe in predestination)
the denial of free will ( I don’t deny free will)
the total depravity of natural humans (Natural man is flesh and although capable of good deeds is also prone to sin)
The incapabilty of the flesh to do anything good (The flesh can do good works but is also prone to sin. It is divided by nature)
The conviction that indwelling grace/knowledge works perfection (The indwelling Spirit cannot sin.read Romans 8)
The belittling of obeing literal commands ( I don’t belittle obedience, but it is not obedience which saves. We are saved by grace, through faith.)
The belittling of sound doctrine and the Bible (I don’t belittle sound doctrine, but I do condemn doctrine that place man as his own savior by his obedience to commands.)
The overemphasis on personal guidance by the Spirit (I definitely believe that we are guided by Gods Spirit within us. This is taught throughout scripture. And my own experience knows this to be true.)
The belittling of baptism ( I don’t belittle baptism. But i do put it in it’s proper place in the process of salvation. Water baptism is not that which saves. We are saved by faith, through faith.)
Unconditional eternal security of the elect – “the Seed” saves anyhow ( I don’t believe this at all)
Here is what legalism believes:
The doctrine of salvation through obedient works of the flesh
Sin is not covered by grace
The belittling of those who believe that we are an instrument by which God lives
The unbelief that God interacts with Christians by way of His Spirit in them.
That the text is the only communication that God has with his children
The belittleing of all understanding and beliefs that are not created by them
That outer works are most important, as compared to inner consciousness
That we are continually in danger of losing salvation if not self-disciplined
That dunking one in water is that which saves.
Everyone is condemned to eternal destruction but them.
That outer expression of obedient works is more important than anything
Which of the 2nd century churches are you in line with, as you stated you wish to be? The church at Galatia? Corinth? Which ones? I’m curious.
OK, Phil, a short notice, because I’m engaged in a similar controversy in Vienna.
a) Legalism is a word not found in the New Testament
But lawlessness is something we are warned of frequently in the NT. In fact, grace teaches us to reject lawlessness (Tit 2:11-16). The opposite to being lawless is being under Law, which is quite logical when we confess Christ as Lord (i.e. King). So obeying Him is mandatory (Mat 28:18-20).
b) Romans 8
Is one of my favorite texts. Verses 1-4 present the fact that by faith we are in Christ (and Christ is in us). This “implanted” a New Law of Spirit and Life in us, by which we live. The purpose of this is that by walking through the Spirit we fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law. Remember that by the Spirit the Law is written unto our hearts (Jer 31:33) so that we do it (Ez 11:19-20) but not in our strength, but prompted by the Spirit (Ez 36:26-27). This means, He works both to will and to accomplish (Phil 2:13) but we must always be obedient (Phil 2:12) and do everything without murmuring and diputes (Phil 2:14). This is perfect synergy. Without obedience there is no salvation, so Paul says he could have worked in vain in Philippi if they fail doing this (Phil 2:16).
Now Rom 8 is dived in three sections dealing with past, present and future aspects of our salvation. Being in Christ is something that started at a time in our biography. This should be treated as a given, unless it is not true for ourselves (Rom 8:9). The present aspect of this salvation is “working out the salvation with fear and trembling” (see also Phil 2:12), which means that we have to use the power of the Spirit to kill the desires of the flesh in order to live (Rom 8:12-13). That’s what it means in this context to be led by the Spirit (Rom 8:14), because we are no longer under the Law of Sin, when the Spirit is in us. We are no longer in bondage but free sons of God (Rom 8:15-16). The future aspect is dealt with in the verses 17-27 where Paul admits that though we are not livuing under the rule of the flesh, we still are in the flesh and groan constantly because of its weakness. We and the whole creation await the day when our salvation will be complete in the resurrection of our bodies.
In sum, Roman 8 demands an active and obedient faith, which is the whole goal of Romans (Rom 1:58 and Rom 16:16), because Christ is the Son of David and the Son of God, the King (Rom 1:2-4) to whom our knees shall bow (Phil 2:11) which expresses total submission in obedience (Phil 2:12-14). This is not legalism, but it shows clearly that we are under the Law of Christ. Lawlessness leads to cold love (Mat 24:12).
c) The 2nd century church of Christ
Paul said to Timothy top entrust the message he preached to faithful men who are able to teach others also (2Ti 2:2). Timothy lived until aboutthe year 80 AD and died as a martyr in Ephesus. John led the churches in Asia minor until is death in the days of Trajan around 100 AD. Onesimus as a bishop in Ephesus at the time Ignatius wrote his letters (around 117 AD). Clement, a co-worker of Paul, wrote a letter from the church of Rome to the church in Corinth around 96 AD which is full of sound doctrine. Polycarp and Ignatius were both disciples of John who like him fought Gnosticism in Asia Minor. I’ll leave it with this sample of names.
What can we expect? The reason I write frequently look up their writings is obvious. I suspect that those who heard and saw the Apostles in person had a more complete undestanding of the Bible (and this was their sole authority, too) thatn any 21st century scholar who is neither really fluent in Greek nur familiar with the ancient culture and customs, nor with the church life of the first generations.
As a teacher in the Lord’s church am rather in agreement with these men than with teachings they labeled as Gnostic heresy. My list of Gnostic statements is accurate – many Evangelicals sound a lot like it, and I am glad to see that you disagree with most of them. Yet you still hold to a few of these Gnostic teachings. You may want to go into more detail on this yourself. I cannot be too engaged in this discussion here.
BTW – this links to the main issue ofthis thread: I checked up virtually each statement of the teachings of the Early church up to the 5th century on the headcovering, and followed it loosely through the rest of church history. There is not a shred of soubt as to how this was understood and ought to be practiced today. All differing opinions (long hair is the veil or it was cultural) are fairly young theories that lack any historic basis and are in conflicht with Pauls very words. The testimony of history just helos to nail this fact – scripture alone would be sufficient, but the deceptions of modern times are strong.
Amen. I agree with exception to your last paragraph. :-)
Good comments both Scott and Aba. I’m ready to get this conversation back to the head covering. Phil, thanks for joining us, but I don’t think you’re going to move and I know I’m not. The Bible is my only guide. Phil, a woman who worships with her head uncovered dishonors her head and does so without the angel’s blessing (1 Cor. 11:3,5,10). This is what the Bible says. I have not other guide to chance this ordinance. It was never retracted or changed in the New Testament. I believe this because the Bible tells me so.
Asbanar,Scott and Michael, I’ll just say this and then leave this thread alone:
Asbanar, the word “Gnostic” doesn’t exist in the bible either. Neither does the term “scriptural.” So I don;t know what you point is in telling me that “legalist” is not in the Bible.
From a practical POV you may be right about some of what you say. But from a Spiritual POV you are badly missing the point of NT Christianity. A spiritually transformed mind is infused with the commands that the written text is trying to convey. You and other coC members obviously don’t believe this, otherwise you would not be extolling the virtues of obedience to commands as the end-all of the Christian life. The NT gives so much insight into this New Life by the Spirit, yet legalists refuse to see it and insist on living by their own competency to follow rules, commands and laws, which is a product OT thinking. As I said, the NT is like a hologram in that it has obvious messages and then it has more subtle spiritual messages. I could easily show you but you have your mind made up that NT Christianity is defined by the your personal ability to perform obedience. and it perverts the message of Christ and Paul, who are trying to bring you into a spiritual relationship with God. If you don’t have ears to hear then you’ll have to take that up with God.
I can be reached at execuphil@gmail.com if you want to continue this discussion.
Thanks, Phil, for taking the time to write. I disagree with you and you disagree with me. I cannot see where you are coming from because it is based on “personal evaluations” and “subjective feelings.” I can only understand what the Bible tells me. I am ready for this part of the website to go back to the discussion of the head covering for women. I believe the Bible for what it says about woman’s place. Our society no longer believes it, but I do because the Bible tells me so.
That’s how I know Jesus loves me, too! Take care.
Scott, Here’s an article I just wrote in response to a lady’s question about suicide. I could have said much more, but see what you think, if you have time. God bless, Michael R. Baggett Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 18:19:35 +0000 To: mikebaggett@hotmail.com
Were you posting a link or waiting for my reply via email?
If you want to post it, it is ok, but your thoughts are appreciated.
Mike Baggett
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
Michael, I think your approach is what I may disagree with. If you approach Christianity from a sense of what you need to do to please God then you have missed God’s higher will for you. Yes, there is a place for obedience to commands, but a transformed Christian will assume the mind of Christ and will take on a new essence that reflects this transformation. Paul admonished the Galatians for not wanting to get into the Spirit, and clinging to the older way of obedience to laws and commands. He went as far as to say, “I suffer the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you.” He was trying to bring them into a more spiritual relationship with Truth and they resisted and simply wanted commands to obey. It’s virtuous to want to please God and follow the written text, but doing this does not require a transformed mind. Anyone can use human effort and can somewhat succeed toward this goal, but it keeps one attached to the flesh…as it is the flesh that uses human effort. Until we are spiritually transformed we must continue to do what you suggest, but this is not the end of the Christian journey. There is a higher and richer relationship with God that awaits the Christian who dies to self, and is reborn with a New Mind. And this New Mind becomes the means by which Christ lives in us and we in Him. There is no separate self to please God and continues to work towards obedience because we are now the instrument in which God lives by His Spirit. This is where the coC falls short. They believe that obedience is the end-all towards salvation. Yet no one obeys perfectly and thus grace becomes the means by which we receive forgiveness. Romans 8 makes it clear that we must live according to the Spirit. It says nothing about living from the “words of the Spirit,” but from the direct influence God’s Spirit within us. Again, nothing wrong with obedience to commands, but spiritual regeneration gets pushed aside when the ego thinks it can gain favor with God through personal effort. The NT warns against this mindset.
I was raised in the coC and spent 35 years there before leaving due to spiritual stagnation.
Being raised in the churches of Jesus Christ, stagnation comes from the immature refusing to grow. Growth and stagnation are also seen among the churches of Christ in the Scriptures and likewise today.
I thought I knew what Phil was saying, but it is hard to say when he appears to set Galatians as only Spirit over flesh rather than also Spirit over the Law when both are harmonious teachings. Test the spirits (1 Jn 4.1, 6). I don’t know if Phil is saying that “because you obey God, then you don’t get the Spirit”, which is very highhanded. That sounds Gnostic and even mystical. I thought that he was saying that the Christian growing is love, faith, and all fruits of the Spirit is compelled by the Spirit more than by only the commands or a “checklist”.
God dwells in us by love (1 Jn). The mind also must be set on the Spirit for Him to indwell us (Ro 8.5-13). We also live in a curious time like when some Corinthians claimed to be more spiritual than other Christians. Something is wrong when believers speak of having the Spirit more than others (1 Co 12). What happened to the indwelling of the Word (Cl 3.16)? What happened to the indwelling of Christ (Ep 3.16)? What about the indwelling of the Father (1 Jn 3.24, 4.17ff)? We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit rather than somehow converted against our will to be filled (Ep 5.19). It is quite lopsided how many speak of God’s indwelling giving credit to the “Spirit” over God the Father, the Son, and the Spirit as One God.
Who has the Spirit – the mature or the immature? Let us reconsider our words.
Scott, if you think that stagnation comes immaturity then it shows your lack of insight. It has nothing to do with immaturity, but has everything to do with trying to be led by words more than the direct interaction of God’s Spirit with the Christian. One cannot look at a Christian who obeys and know whether this obedience is from love,faith or fear. It looks the same on the surface. When I was in the coC I obeyed because i was hammered with the idea that I would lose my salvation if I didn’t, which is what the coC teaches. I looked like everyone else who was obedient, and they thought I had faith and love (Just being real with you here). I’m not suggesting that one cannot obey from love and faith. But it looks the same on the surface.
You criticize those who say they are more spiritual than others, yet you claim to be more biblical than others. What’s the difference? I live from God’s Spirit who dwells in me. You live from the text that tells you how to perform your Christian duties. Does Romans 8 mean anything to you?
The flesh does not need love and faith to carry out Christian behavior. Fear will motivate one to do so. You can claim to live by faith but when you know that your salvation is dependent on your ability to follow commands then fear becomes a factor in your Christian life. Grace gets diluted and takes a back seat to fear.
I hope you will reconsider your method by which you think we are saved. We are saved by grace and not by obedience.
Paul told the Corinthians to be more spiritual by following the words of the Spirit (1 Co 2, 14.37).
You sound just like the old Phil. You have the same story and same prejudice. By the way, we will lose our salvation if we continue in sin (Ro 6.1-2, He 10.26, 1 Jn 1.7-10).
If you think that following the scriptures makes one automatically spiritual then it shows your lack of insight. It does not require spirituality to follow commands. Can you honestly not see this?
BTW,, you will not lose your salvation by sinning. Rom. 5:20, 21,The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Shall we continue in sin so that Grace may abound? God forbid (Rom. 6:1). Hello all. Could we please get back to the head covering…
Scott, you should have a thread here for general discussion so themed threads don’t get off track.
True.
Is the head covering issue about the physical appearance toward God? Or is there a more spiritual message here?
Phil,
Were you once enslaved to sin while searching for answers among the churches of Christ, but only when you found God’s forgiving grace and lived by it did you stop sinning? Did you stop living by the law but set your mind on the Spirit, and then you were released from the sin that enslaved you? Did God’s Spirit of grace release you from sin and law so that you lived being compelled by the love of Christ?
The Phil responding on here, would this happen to be Phil Holman?
The issue is not what the bible says but is what one understands the bible to say. The bible is a spiritual writing yet so few people approach it from a spiritual POV. Instead they apply literal and practical standards about how things are supposed to be look and be performed, including the head covering situation. These are physical things that do not make one spiritual but only make the form look spiritual. Satan wins when he gets us to focus on the outer effect and not the inner cause. Paul made a point by using circumcision as an example of this mindset. He said, “neither circumcision nor uncircumsion matters. What matters is a new creation. Is this principle not valid here in this discussion?
It is all about what the Bible says and means (1 Pet. 4:11).
Michael, how do you know your understanding of the scriptures is the correct one? How many religions have been created from the same bible scripture?
By rightly dividing or handling aright the word of God, I have come to the correct conclusion (II Tim. 2:15). Jesus says we can know the truth (John 8:32). Paul the apostle says we can understand when we read (Eph. 4:3). John the apostle says these things are written so we can know we have eternal life (1st John 5:13). We know we live under the New Testament; so, we are not bound to the Jewish laws of the Old Testament (Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:11-16; Heb. 8:13). We understand that we are to follow the teaching of Christ and His Holy Spirit guided apostles (John 16:13; Matt. 28:18-20; Acts 2:42; 1 Cor. 11:2; 14:37; II Thess. 2:14-15). We understand that whatever was taught to one congregation by the apostles was taught to every congregation (1st Cor. 1:10; 4:16-17; 7:17; 11:16; 14:33-34; 16:1-2). If we follow the commands, apostolic examples and necessary inferences (For example: Lord’s Supper each first day of the week–Acts 20:7); then, we can be the same church as the one Christ established in the New Testament.
The head covering is a spiritual practice and not just a physical appearance based doctrine just like baptism is a spiritual practice. For example, baptism is for putting on Christ (Gal. 3:26-27), and for contacting spiritually speaking the cleansing-saving blood of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Rom. 6:3,5). When the woman wears the head covering during worship, she shows her order in the headship (1st Cor. 11:3,5). Since she is the glory of the man, his glory is covered (1 Cor. 11:7). She shows her order in creation (1 Cor. 11:8-9). The angels observe the order of the worship to see if she is in order and wearing the head covering that is worn because of reasoned rooted in creation order (1 Cor. 11:10; 14:40). I would say there are plenty of spiritual implications in the woman wearing the head covering in worship, not the least being the glory of God (1 Cor. 11:7).
This is not Phil Holman, BTW.
Michael, Is your Christian walk based on the following of commands? Even the flesh can discipline itself to follow commands without the influence of the Spirit. The NT continually speaks of a deeper relationship with God that is found in the transformation of the mind, in which we live by God’s Spirit within our consciousness and not just a process of following written commands. Do you subscribe to this? Read Romans 8.
You are still mixing the spiritual with the practical. The physical head covering does not change one’s consciousness, just as physical baptism does not change one’s consciousness. Again, the NT refers to the regeneration of mind as that which changes our nature into the likeness of Christ. You, Scott and those in the coC do not seem to subscribe to anything but the mechanical actions of following the NT commands, as if they are another set of laws to be obeyed. This is not NT Christianity. NT Christianity places emphasis on the newness of living from God’s Spirit within us, and not just from CENI. I hope you will investigate this and see the deeper aspects of NT teaching. I have so many scriptures that refer to this deeper level of relationship that you and Scott seem to be missing. I would be glad to post these.
I would say that you are not rightly dividing the word of truth if you are NOT using the influence of God’s Spirit within you. Yes, this is a mystical process, not just a logical process. The Spiritual Kingdom is mystical in nature. I hope you know this.
Phil, thanks for getting back on the web site. Even though we are not on the topic of the covering, I believe you are sincere and ask good questions. I was wondering how you ever learned about Commands, Examples and Necessary Inferences? Anyway, if you take them away, what do we have left? I follow Jesus Christ who is my King. We have already covered the point that the word of God was written for us to understand (Eph. 3:4). Yes, indeed, Jesus did say, “Ye shall know the truth…” (John 8:32). That truth comes through and by God’s word (John 17:17). In fact, we shall all be judged by this word (John 12:48). Those who keep this word will be blessed (Rev. 1:3; 22:14). The measurement of our love for Christ is according whether we obey Jesus or not, for Jesus says, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15). What the apostles wrote is Scripture (2 Peter 3:16). In fact, Paul said that the things that he writes as an apostles are the “commandments of the Lord” (1st Cor. 14:37). Obeying the will of Christ out of a motive of love, realizing we are unprofitable without Him, and that only His Blood can provide us forgiveness of sins and an entrance into Heaven is how I serve Jesus. I show my love for Jesus by learning and obeying His word. I don’t understand how anyone can disagree with this as the opposite would merely reflect that one does not love Jesus.
Excellent points
Let’s get the head covering discussion going again. Here is one: History indicates there was a mixed culture in the church at Corinth made up of Romans, Jews and Greeks. Their backgrounds concerning the women wearing head covering was not the same. If this is true, and it appears to be the truth, this makes the argument that the head covering was just “Paul authorizing the use of an existing custom” one of the biggest lies ever set forth in the religious world; the other being that Jesus wore long hair.
The essence of the confusion is very poor translation, usually by people who had absolutely no knowledge of the culture of the Old Testament, which is the root of the New Testament. Basically what Paul was saying was that it was a disgrace to come to a church meeting dressed and behaving in the ways of the heathen world. This not only disregards but renders powerless the spiritual structure that God has put in place for harmonious relations between the sexes, and effective worship and service in the Kingdom. Women are not inferior to men, in fact the opposite is true, which is why women consent to the role of honour for men in spiritual life. This is a well-known fact among the Jews. We need to pray that the original Aramaic texts of the New Testament will be found – we don’t have them, and consequently we don’t have the true meaning of many passages.
God has given us everything we need that pertains to live and godliness through the knowledge of Him (Christ)….(II Pet. 1:3). God has given and preserved His word. What a sad state to live in believing we do not have the true word of God. Men and women are equal in importance, but serve different roles in the home, Church, and I am convinced, in society (1 Cor. 11:3,7-12; 14:33,34; 1 Tim. 2:9-15; Titus 2:4,5). God wants the man to act, behave and be responsible in the duties of a man; God wants the woman to act, behave and be responsible in the duties of a woman. Man was God’s first created human and is his glory, kind of like your first new car. The woman is the glory of the man and was created “for the man” (1 Cor. 11:7-9). I didn’t write that passage, the Holy Spirit did that. May we accept God’s word and conform to it as men and women who love and respect God and His word, whatever His word directs us to be as a man or woman (Rom. 12:1,2). God bless.
We don’t have the true Word of God in the New Testament, just many, many faulty translations arising out of the Greek version, which is wrongly believed by many to be the original, it is not – this is a well-known and proven fact among real Biblical scholars. For the lay among us, the Holy Spirit bears witness to all these errors in translation by revealing the True Word to those who are seeking … try this, you will see.
The Holy Spirit has revealed to me that Christ is infallible having given revelation through His Apostles and prophets, because what the Scriptures say, the Holy Spirit says (Eph. 3:3-5, 2 Pet. 1:3, Jude 3).
What the Holy Spirit Says about Himself – Part 1 of The Holy Spirit Speaks
There are many examples of Bible verses that have been mistranslated and of additions and deletions to text. I will provide two examples of such changes which appear to have been done to support the pagan trinity doctrine. One example of scripture that has been changed is the baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 stating “in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit”. It is obvious that this verse has been changed by Trinitarians to support their pagan doctrine because it doesn’t agree with other scripture which confirms that baptism is in the name of Jesus alone (Acts 2:38, Acts 8:12, Acts 10:48, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3, Galatians 3:27). Another example of scripture that has been changed is I John 5: 7 – 8 where some Bible versions such as the King James have added text “heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth”. If we look at the text of the Aramic Bible we see the truth of these verses “And The Spirit testifies because The Spirit is the truth. And there are three testifying: The Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three of them are in one”. These changes pervert scripture and are a significant part of the deception that we were warned about. To protect ourselves from this deception we must “test all things and hold fast to what is good” as stated in 1 Thes 5:21. Have you identified these deficiencies and if so how to you deal with them?
Hello Scott, I’m forwarding you a page from Bruce Terry’s web site, which is part of what he teaches in University courses. It is a collection of historical comments about Greek culture and the veil. It’s pretty interesting. Check your attachments. Have a blessed day, Michael Baggett
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 13:14:00 +0000 To: mikebaggett@hotmail.com
Thank you, Mike. I plan to make these studies a part of my grad work.
Not a sound point. You must cite variants. The text is innocent until proven guilty. First John 5.7-8 does contain a variant, but Matt. 28 does not and there are other references to God the Father, the Son, and the Spirit like 2 Cor 13.14. Please, I urge to very honestly reconsider Isa 9.6-7 & 48.16-17. Also, note Rom 9.5, Col 1.15-20, 2.9-10, Phil 2.5-8, 2 Pet 1.1, & Rev 1ff. Our salvation is on the line in understanding Jesus’ identity (Jn 8.24).
There is some compelling evidence that Matthew 28:19 has been changed. Eusebius Pamphili (aka Eusebius of Caesarea), a Greek teacher of the church who was born about 270 AD and died about 340 AD, quoted Matthew 28:19 in his writings. I have a book entitled Eusebius Proof of the Gospel (Eusebius’s work as translated by Rev WJ Ferrar) and on page 152 he quotes this verse as “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you”, and he comments extensively on Jesus’s teaching “in my name” on page 157. This is critical information for anyone desiring to be on the narrow road to salvation – is it not?
Eusebius like the NT writers may not have been making a full quote. This also dismisses the Received Text, the Byzantine texts, the Alexandrian texts, Western texts, and eclectic texts accumulating to more than 5800 extant manuscripts. I will now do a quick search of direct quotes of early church writers to confirm Matthew 28.19’s baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
So you take one source that deviates from the others and base your claim on this? Now, that’s what I call dangerous. The biggest danger is going outside the Bible to rely on feelings. If everyone claims to be literally lead by the Holy Spirit, how do we know who has the truth? The answer is we are all led by one standard, the Bible, and if we all agree with it, we are all led in the same direction. Our God not an author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33). Let’s get back to the head covering.
True. Test the spirits (1 Jn 4.1). Follow the Spirit agreeing with the Apostles (1 Jn 4.6). How do we know what the Apostles taught? The Scriptures
Also, Jesus said that His words are spirit & life (Jn 6.63). The Spirit is truth (1 Jn 5.6), & so is the Word (Jn 17.17). How are we led by the Spirit but by the Word written on the heart?
Amen!
I agree with you 100%. We need to test all things and hold fast to the truth. In my study of the WORD I am testing it to ensure it is in agreement with what Jesus taught. Scripture does not contradict scripture when we have a good translation. Contradictions in scripture indicate a problem and I investigate. I love the WORD and am blessed to have lots of time to study it in depth. I see the beauty of it the more I study.
Truth be told scripture doesn’t agree within itself with the trinity teaching because there is a great deal of scripture that confirms the holy spirit is not a God but the spirit of God (gender neutral), and that Jesus was the first of God’s creation and is not God. It is only when I eliminate additions and deletions from text and poor translation of verses that the truth of the WORD really shines through. Then we can see the beauty of the entire salvation plan – that Jesus, the first of God’s creation, was born a man, and suffered and died to redeem us from our sins. I ask you to keep an open mind and be willing to settle for the truth because it is the only route to salvation.
If we have no concrete standard of truth, then, we are like the cat who is chasing his tail. This conversation will go nowhere. Let’s discuss the head covering based on what the Bible says.
There is post about the Deity of Christ on here. I will create posts for discussion via request. Thank you.
Scott, I was not meaning to tell you how to run your web site, but asking the ones who changed the topic of the head covering in the heading to let us get it back to that topic. I am finished with the “cat chasing his tail.” I do, however, feel like there is much more to be discussed about the head covering. I appreciate you allowing open discussions very much.
Are you saying that we cannot trust the Greek? Because the manuscripts are over 6,000, and the majority text agrees. Why not simply read the Greek?
“We don’t have the true Word of God in the New Testament, just many, many faulty translations arising out of the Greek version, which is wrongly believed by many to be the original, it is not – this is a well-known and proven fact among real Biblical scholars.”
And yet God promises that we will always have His Word. Before the “real Biblical scholars” weighed in, what did believers use? Was God’s promise void for the hundreds of years before the “real Biblical scholars” showed up?
The point is that all of the many translations of the so-called original New Testament that are available today are faulty – and inconsistent – in many ways – this has been a proven fact over the past 2 000 years, there is much sound literature on the subject – much of it produced in the 1800s! This inconsistent state of Christianity, or rather Churchianity – denominationalism, and they come and go – through the ages more than proves the faultiness, with little consistency with the Old Testament, and great hatred for the Jews. On the other hand, the Old Testament in Hebrew is rock-solid because it is the original, and there is only one. In fact, the Jews go even further and consider only the Torah (Pentateuch) to be absolutely accurate because it was given directly by Elohim (note the plural = the Trinity!) on Mount Sinai. Every real Christian knows that true revelation of the Word comes by the Holy Spirit and is completely consistent with the Old Testament (Tanakh). In fact, through the Holy Spirit one can even find and grasp the real Gospel in the Tanakh. At the right time, either the original Aramaic texts of the New Testament will be found or the Holy Spirit will reveal to all through real Bible scholars the full true meaning of the New Testament – in the context of the Old Testament. Zechariah 8:23.
As a 2nd semester grad student in Biblical studies, the historical critical method has worn out its time in secularism. Existentialism was behind such findings and are now generally disregarded. I think if you are consider Bart Ehrman’s sources as the new wave of skepticism, then you need to address the scriptures as formed in the 1st c. like he does. Although I strongly disagree with him, such studies are not about transmission of the text anymore, but how did the writers of the New Testament come to believe that Jesus was the Word and fullness of God in the flesh. Ehrman says the evolution of believing Jesus is God came from the belief in the resurrection seen via the order of the writings of the gospels. Do not God and Jesus have the same Holy Spirit (Gal 4.6)?
You must also recognize the extensive use of the LXX. Although like you, I find many good points in the Tanakh over the Masoretic.
Yet, you have simply overlooked my plea to see the deity of God come in the flesh in Isaiah (9.6-7, 48.12-17).
We need a full understanding of the “spirit” before we can determine the full meaning of Galatians 4:6 where it says “God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts”. First both the Hebrew (ruach) and Greek (pneuma) words that are translated as “spirit” are more broadly defined as “breath, wind, spirit” and the meaning of these words varies based on the context in which they are used. In scripture there are many different “spirits”; there is the holy spirit (which in scripture always refers to God’s spirit), God’s spirit (Matthew 12:28, 1 John 4:2, Romans 8:14, and 1 Cor 3:16), Christ’s spirit (Acts 16:7, 1 Peter 1:11, Philippians 1:19), evil spirits (Luke 4:33, Acts 19:15 & 16), and those that are characteristics like the “spirit of the world” in 1 Cor 2:12, and the spirit of wisdom and understanding, counsel and strength, knowledge and the fear of the LORD that God gave Jesus (Isaiah 11: 1 & 2). The concept that “spirit” is characteristics is supported by its varied uses including in Eph 2: 1 & 2 where it says “you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.” This is how we test a “spirit” because the fruit of the spirit results in characteristics -words, actions, deeds – that reveal this to us. This is confirmed in Titus 1:16 where it says “They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed”, and 1 John 2:4 “Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person”. In 1 John 2:22 he says “Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son”, and in Romans 8:9 it refers to both the spirit of God AND the spirit of Christ when Paul states “You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ”, which leads me to the conclusion that we need both the spirit of God AND his son Jesus Christ to be saved.
Pneamos is not the same Greek word as pneustos. Spirit and breath are not the same, but similar in root. It is an exegetical fallacy to equate them meaning because of their form is similar in root.
For instance, is “is” the same “to be” when these are the same word in Greek and yet different tenses?
Back to 1 Corinthians 11, God is the head of Christ.
“Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.”
And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit. Thus says the Lord [Yahweh], your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: ‘I am the Lord your God,'”
See, I agree with you until your last statement as though the New Testament was originally in Aramaic, but the early church writers say that only Matthew as also written in Aramaic. There is no reason to doubt the majority text of the Greek New Testament or the ancient Latin majority.
There is much documented evidence that the Greek New Testament is not the original. Ask the Lord wholeheartedly to lead you in this and you will make remarkable discoveries. I am currently involved in the publication in Jerusalem of a book written as far back as the 1800s on this very topic. You could start with Josephus, the ancient Jewish historian – reading prayerfully, you will have insights that will astound you. Perhaps the Lord will allow the original New Testament texts to come to light.
And what would you expect from the original? God promised to preserve His and I believe Him.
I have read the early Christian writers extensively. No doubt we have the text and the doctrine. For instance, Irenaeus quoted large chunks of the Gospels and other Christian scriptures in 180 AD. He also quoted most of Acts. His quotes agree exactly with the 5th Byzantine texts like Alexandrinus and the majority of the Byzantine texts from the 7th c. forward. The Byzantine text does preserve the original. These facts came prayerfully for wisdom from God (Jas. 1:5).
No, it is not like that, the Holy Spirit leads His people to discover the truth through fallen human language. God actually uses this fallen language as a veil to prevent people who are not His from discovering and abusing the Power of Holy Truth. Along the lines of the Tower of Babel. There are levels of Revelation, just as there are a number of heavens. The more we mature in Him, the more the Holy Spirit reveals to us – eternally. Jesus the man didn’t speak Greek, He spoke Aramaic. There are many proofs for this. You will find them if you start to explore the literature prayerfully. That’s one of the ways we can know that the Greek texts are not the originals. Biblical sociolinguists can further prove this by faulty Greek terms used that do not carry the full contextual meaning of what Jesus said in the Aramaic. All the worldly texts were manipulated by men in line with supremacist world cultures – that’s why they are in accord, they were made so.
Wow. So, you can’t trust Jesus’ words or those of His Apostles? How can you test the spirit, who has told you these things? You have got to get back to Jesus Christ. Start with Him and His words for Him to lead you to the Truth. Otherwise, you are lost.
Jesus did speak Greek like everyone else who spoke Greek and Aramaic then. The Old Testament was translated into Greek more than 3 centuries before Christ. See LXX. This was the trade language and language of theological treatise throughout the world. There is no veil in the Greek language. It is very precise. I read the Greek New Testament everyday along with numerous other works. We can test the definition of words and grammar extensively. Someone has really deceived you. The early Christian writers wrote in Greek. Even, Irenaeus noted that Matthew’s gospel was written in Greek like the rest of the Christian scriptures although he made a Hebrew copy too. See also Papias and Eusebius.
Languages are not misogynistic, because the masculine pronouns are inclusive of both sexes giving the feminine pronouns its own unique feminine usage. Quite the contrary when the pagan worship to Diana and Dionysus were led by women.
Sexism is an invented word from 1967 and a social construct used often to direct criticism toward God coming in the flesh as a man and having 12 males as His closest disciples. I am not overlooking the women either ( Lk 8).
I think this is strange that you would doubt whether we have Jesus’ original words. Having Jesus’ words, we know that He told His Apostles that He gave His words to them (John 17:8). Giving His words to them, He told them (and not us) that His Spirit would guide them into all Truth (John 16:13). We also know that those, who followed Christ, would follow His Apostles (John 15:20). Add to this that Jesus said that His words would never pass away (Matt. 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33).
If we did not have the original, then how would we know anything for certain about the Holy Spirit and what Jesus said about the Spirit? How would we test the spirits by the Apostles’ doctrine for many false prophets have come into the world (1 John 4:1, 6)? How would we know what Jesus said and did not say? The distrust would be unending. Everyone, who claimed the Spirit, and contradicted each other would through all faith in Christ into a tailspin and ruin. Only remnants of neognosticism and philosophical theism would survive leaving the world in darkness.
See response above :)
Sorry but you are wrong – I suggest you pray about everything you believe with an open heart. I am bowing out of this now, it is between you and the Lord …
Without the Bible, we would be totally lost. I believe the Bible. The Holy Spirit does not lead us outside of this spoken word (Eph. 3:2-5).
That is not correct either. Abraham didn’t have the Bible. At the time of Jesus there was no New Testament – nor any churches, for that matter, as a Jew He attended synagogue to fulfil the Law. Without the Father, Messiah and Holy Spirit we would be totally lost. I cannot comment any further. All the best.
Mandy, God spoke to men in old time in various manners, including directly. Today, He speaks to us through His son, who speaks to us through this New Testament. God speaks to no man or woman directly today (Heb. 1:1,2; 2:1-4).
Amen.
Thank you for your discussion.
Yes, thank you, Mandy, and thank you Scott for your website where we can openly discuss all matters concerning God’s will for us. May we all keep seeking to do what God wills.
Hi Mandy I have been studying the WORD for quite a few years independent of any organized religion and I can see what you are saying is true. I have found it quite shocking and eye opening to see the extent of the veil that is preventing many from seeing the truth. In 1 Cor 3:14 Paul says that the veil “is removed in Christ” and in 2 Cor 4:3 “it is veiled to those who are perishing”. In 2 Cor 4:4 Paul goes on to say “the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” In 1 Peter 1:23 he says “for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, [that is], through the living and enduring word of God”, yet I have seen the perversion (translation errors, additions, and deletions of text) in many Bible versions which caused me some concern, but yet as you state I believe we can overcome this through the power of the Holy Spirit and prayer.
What is the name of the book you are involved in publishing? I am interested in understanding the history of the Bible better and your book sounds like a wonderful resource.
This is very dangerous thinking! The comment about the veil of the temple have not one thing to do with the veil (see the American Standard Version) of 1st Corinthians 11:3-16). If I understood that right, this is not how to handle the word of God. If we are going to handle God’s word at all, we cannot go to sources outside of the word for they will only add things to it. We are forbidden to add to or take away from this word (II John 9-11; Rev. 22:18-19). Those sources outside of the Bible just lead people away from what is taught in the Bible. Stay with the Bible!
Sorry Michael I meant 2 Cor 3: 14 not 1 Cor as I stated. 2 Cor 3:14 “But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.” I believe the scripture is clear about the veil (Greek word kalumma meaning a covering) blinding a person from the truth (2 Cor 4:3). “Blindness” is used metaphorically in the Scriptures to portray the lack of spiritual sight (John 12:40, 2 Cor 4:4, 1 John 2:11, Romans 11:25, Eph 4:18). Then there is the uncovering, unveiling or revealing which is the greek word apokalupto which in 1 Corinthians 2:10 Paul says “For us, however, God has drawn aside the veil through the teaching of the Spirit; for the Spirit searches everything, including the depths of the divine nature”. Scripture does state that Jesus is the living veil (Hebrews 10:20). So are they truly that different from each other because by definition both the cover and the veil prevent spiritual sight?
What religion are you with?
I am a Christian only. I worship with churches of Christ. Let me see if I understand what you are saying: are you saying in your conclusion that there really isn’t that much difference in the veil as in the law that blinded some and the veil the woman is to wear in worship when praying; that there really isn’t a difference that both blind? I’m trying to understand what you are communicating.
My original comment was to Mandy and I wasn’t referring to the original article which was about head coverings (Greek katakaluptó: to cover up) but about the veil (Greek word kalumma meaning a covering). In respect to the head covering – there are only 3 occurences of this word and all of them are used in 1 Cor 11 by Paul. I believe Paul was answering a question about the custom of head coverings for women and his answer was that “her hair is given to her for a covering” v15 and “we have no such custom” v16 so it is not a requirement for women to cover their head. I don’t see any relationship between the head covering, the veil (cover), and the veil of the temple.
Then, with all respect, why don’t ya’ll take up the other discussion somewhere else since this is supposed to be about the head covering?
I must agree.
Good points.
to Mandy,
Again, you haven’t answered my objection to your claim that the NT is corrupted. God has promised that we will always have His Word. Your claims are basically calling God a liar.
“In fact, through the Holy Spirit one can even find and grasp the real Gospel in the Tanakh. At the right time, either the original Aramaic texts of the New Testament will be found or the Holy Spirit will reveal to all through real Bible scholars the full true meaning of the New Testament – in the context of the Old Testament. Zechariah 8:23.”
Just a clue: if you have a spirit that is telling you that presently we do not have God’s Word EXCEPT for the Tanakh, then that spirit is a counterfeit one. The Holy Spirit will NEVER say anything contrary to God’s Word. A spirit which tries to undermine God’s promise is not of God. It is a lying spirit, not holy. You need to rebuke it, not give heed to it.
The Holy Spirit will testify of nothing except Jesus Christ and His once-for-all sacrifice. Your spirit’s desire to return to the Old Covenant (Testament) is proof it is counterfeit.
There will be counterfeit Christs and spirits trying to lay the groundwork for a return to the Old Covenant. God will not honor anything that tramples on the once-for-all sacrifice of His Son.
God has promised we will always have His Word. Given a choice between your spirit and God’s promise, the choice is clear.
Yes, there are many corrupted new translations, but the NT has been remarkably well-preserved. Waiting for the “right time” when “the original Aramaic text of the NT will be found” is a set-up. A great many “texts” and “artifacts” which question the validity of God’s Word will be unearthed in the months/years to come.
Tell your spirit “What’s new is not true. What’s true is not new.” See what it says.
No, that is absolutely not what I am saying – just pray about it all, you will see. Moving on now …
Eithet wr believe God preserved His word as He said or we do not. I seeno gray area here.
Sorry, I cannot comment further.
Without a standard [The Bible] there is no way we can agree. Further comments contrary to what the Bible says do not have a leg to stand on since they are comments that are pulled out of thin air and reflect personal opinion or feelings only. Mandy, I hope you will reconsider believing the Bible in the future. We all want to go to heaven. I do not question your sincerity. Come back again.
You are completely misunderstanding what I have been saying – that is the reason I do not wish to comment any further. I have been a Bible-based believer for many, many years … as I suggested, please pray about this and you will be amazed at the ranges of mountains to climb ahead of you. I am not taking any further comments.
Scott, I looked up bterry.com and easily found the subject matter. If you know the verse then you’ll see it clearly.